Radiant wall Heating .....Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I have a job in which its really pushing it to use the floor only for heating, running at about 150F supply 85F surface temp for the Great Room. I would like to supplement this room with a little wall heating. Since have a design supply temp above 120 (max for drywall) I would like to just do some wall heating with suspended tube to cut down the drywall temp and keep things simple. I was wondering what kind of output I would get. ADS only does ceiling with plates, no wall or suspended tube.

As always, thanks all!

Boilerpro

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Guessing a bit here but I suspect the reason you don't find engineering info for bare tube used in wall/ceiling applications is that it's rather impractical.

In floor applications at least convection is working with you with the warm air rising to where you want it to go (the floor). In a wall or ceiling though???

Copper embedded in wet-wall plaster or extruded plates are probably your best options...that is unless you can use a TRVd radiator (panel or otherwise).

Boilerpro_3

I've seen them before

Triad radiant ceiling systems from the 50's and 60's used convector elements, so bare tube should work. Just think how warm a wall is when heating lines are running through it. The cool wall is acting as a convector current prducer jsut like a window does.

Boilerpro

Art Pittaway

Got a bad feeling, BP.....

I think Sterling and I know Invensys has a Division that does radiant cooling and heating panels that drop into 2 x 4 suspended ceilings. These panels have a track like the standard plates so heat can transfer and they run temps as high as baseboard. On the Wall further down are a few pix from Hot Rod and others of shower installs. I've only done sandwich on walls and they worked fine but to just suspend it with no contact, I have my doubts. Watch out for being to optimistic. Art;)

Mike T., Swampeast MO

OK, if you want want of my kooky ideas...

INTERIOR PARTION ONLY--that is unless your outside walls are REALLY thick...

1) Reflective material on the non-radiantly heated side of the wall. Mylar or similar stapled to the studs.

2) Tubing run in HORIZONTAL rows about 12"?? o.c.

3) Some form of rigid "blocking" (1" blue board or pink board?) run horizontally between studs and between EACH tubing run to make individual convective "chambers". You want something rigid but not utterly so that you can make in quantity and install/secure rapidly! Compression alone should secure...

4) Would be BY FAR best if you can gang drill the holes in the studs BEFORE they are installed!!!!

5) Paint the back of the radiantly heated side flat black.

6) Alternative is a partion with HORIZONTAL studs...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Tube Placement

REALLY guessing here...

Put the tube about 2/3 of the way down in each "chamber", i.e. with 12" spacing put the "blocking" 8" above each tube.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Output

This limb is getting REALLY shaky...

With 12" tube spacing surface temp of the wall should be around that of bare-tube floor on 8" centers AT COMPARABLE SUPPLY TEMPERATURE.

Steve Ebels

I've had good luck

With Stadlers Climate Panel in walls. You can run a lot warmer water temps in a wall than a floor typically. 40 btu's / sq ft is usually easy to attain. We install them only below 4 foot to prevent someone nailing a picture into a tube years down the road.

kevin coppinger_4

how about a ....

nice sleek panel radiator....could run it in as an extra loop in the manifold....simple and safer than a nail in a tube...just a thought..kpc

Mark Eatherton1

Radiant Wall test results

Dave, many moons ago, in o ne of my early classes, we tested radiant walls using numerous configurations. We use serpentine PAP suspended in the middle of the wall cavity, finned tube element, bare copper, straight PEX and UltraFin, and Wirsbo Omega plates.

They were all exposed to the same flow rate and same temperature.

After one hour, surface temps were read and outputs calculated. Supply was ~150 degrees F. Flow was approximately 1/8 GPM per stud bay (irrelevant) and the BTUH/Sq Ft. results were as follows;

Wirsbo plates = 28 BTUH
ULTRA fIN = 10.7 BTUH
Finned tube element = 13.1 BTUH
Bare PEX = 14.6 BTUH
Bare copper = 13.9 BTUH
Serpentine PAP = 17.4 BTUH

Obviously, the plates kicked butt...

Bare PEX and bare PAP didn't do too bad either.

It's not a perfect science, but it's something better than nothing...

ME

hr

What about ceilings?

plenty of un-encuumbered footage up there. Lot less nail risk also.

I think the transfer plates are the best way to go.

hot rod

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Dave_25

We do this every day

If you use a "dry method" for above the floor, such as climate panels, your design water temps will drop. The need for additional surface areas such as walls will be reduced, but if need be use them to drive temps down further.

We use wall heating applications every day, especially in bathrooms, behind exterior walled baths and showers (the comfort minded folks of the world LOVE this), or in kitchens full of THE ISLAND which can also be heated.

FYI... Insulate below the floor!!! R19 or better will be huge!

Checkout stadlerviega.com . There is a fair amount of information there, or just call.

Hope this helped, best of luck with your quandry.

DAVE

steve_26

wall heat

Also have used Stadler Climate panels...High out put...works great on walls

steve

Boilerpro_3

Hey Mark

I wonder if the outputs would have changed if you had waited a few more hours. Plates respond so quickly that I wonder if some of the other configurations would have done better if given more time. That data is quite useful. Is it OK to run that high of temp with plates behind sheetrock? Wirsbo limits it to 120Fin radiant ceilings, me thinks.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

Reasons not to use plates,etc

I am trying to keep my water temp up so the same water temp used in the floor can be used in the wall.... hence bare tube. I understand that you should use hotter than 120F water against sheetrock. Maybe there are other opinions on this?

Boilerpro