OKay all you non believers...(ME)

Mark Eatherton1

It keeps raising its ugly head. It also keeps causing a lot of problems, and there is only ONE correct way to address it.

I read today where someone stated that Burnhams series 2 boilers come with the pump bolted to the return. Has anyone ever bothered to read the installation instructions that come with the series 2 boilers? Here, take a look. http://www.burnham.com/pdfs/CurrentPDFfiles/81417032R16(web).pdf

They show a "preferred" location, with the pump pumping away from the PONPC, and they show an "alternate" location, which is the "convenient pump shipping" position.

So the questions is, why do you still put the pump in the wrong place? Is it because your pappy and grand pappy used to do it that way? They also used to have to start their cars with a hand crank too...

Is it because you think the pumps seals will last longer seeing the "cooler" temperatures?

Is it because you don't want to take the 10 minutes necessary to move it to the correct position?

Or is it because you don't understand the Point of No Pressure Change (a misnomer)?

I'm just a little curious, and a LOT tired of having to explain to the consumer that their system is piped a lot less than ideal, and that is the reason their system is so noisy.

I'd be glad to demonstrate the PONPC in a graphic form that will make you "see the light".

What's your excuse?

Not trying to be pompous, just wondering why you continue to do it the wrong way.

And before you grab my tonsils and start yanking, I too used to do it the wrong way...

ME

masterplumb

I do believe but....

I always pump away but on a small residential system I dont think it makes that much of a difference being that the pump is small enough that the suction side of the pump will not fall into a vaccum therefore not causing any air problems. But like I said, I ALWAYS pump away. Chris

Tony Conner

One Of The Big...

...things pumping away does for you, is that it puts the separator at the optimum location. The closer water gets to it's boiling point at a given pressure, the less dissolved air it can hold. The lower the pressure, the lower the temperature water will boil. (Pull a good vacuum, and you can boil water at 40*F.) If you pump away from the expansion tank, and the tank is just downstream from the boiler, you have the hottest water, at the lowest pressure (just ahead of the circ pump). Even though the water won't boil, it's as close to the boiling point as it will get in the system. This is where any dissolved air will be most likely to pop out of solution, and the separator is right there to get rid of it.

Unknown

Mark

I missed the post about Series 2 being shipped with the pump mounted on the return. I do want to correct a misstatement here though. We no longer mount circulators on the Series 2 Gas boilers. They come in a seperate box inside the boiler crate along with the flanges. We discontinued mounting system pumps on most of our gas products several years ago in answer to requests from the field. We also extended the wire harness for the pump in an effort to accomodate these requests and as you already stated, printed a piping diagram to give the instsller different options for "pumping away". Just needed to clear the air a little. There....now I feel better! Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Jerry Boulanger_2

I have a theory about why

boiler manufacturers mount pumps (or used to) on the return. It reduced the height of the shipping carton and allowed them to stack boilers 2 high inside standard vans.

Unknown

That is most of it Jerry

plus the fact that in the old days, folks used to mount pumps on the returns because they felt the seals lasted longer. So as an accommodation back then, the manufacturers began mounting the pumps and wiring them as an extra benefit. Seals have improved immensely and with the advent of wet rotor pumps, folks began asking for the pump on the supply again, so we took them off and now let you put them where you feel they will do best....and that is after the Expansion Tank. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

John Felciano

Pump away

and than I'll have all that extra labor moving the pump and I gota get a longer piece of BX cause the one there is too short.Than to top it off all the untrained guys the oil company sends to clean the boiler will tell the homeowner that I piped the system backwards and that it can't possibly work that way,and every problem the boiler ever has will be associated with the pump being in the wrong place.

Why I would want to put up with all that I'll never know,except that it works better.For us every pump goes on the supply pumping away from PONPC.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

a bit testy, eh?

Boy, you need to get out and back to work!(G)

One of the very first pumping away jobs I did was for a customer who was a royal PITA. I couldn't wait for the warranty period to expire on his new home. About a year after the warranty was past, Mr. PITA calls without heat. After explaining in very explicit terms that he was fired as a customer (one of only four to earn that distinction in all the years I've been in business), which caused him to pop his cork, he went off in search of another victim. That contractor had never before seen pumps installed on the supply side and told Mr. PITA that I was an idiot for placing them there. Naturally, that caused Mr. PITA to call with threats of suing me unless I repiped his 4-pump-zoning system as per the new mechanics specifications. You already know what my answer was(G). I bumped into the replacement victim a few months later and heard his tale of woe regarding how much of a royal PITA the "customer" was. I explained pumping away to him, but you could tell he thought I was from outer-space(G).

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jackchips_2

Come on Pah,

> Boy, you need to get out and back to

> work!(G)

>

> One of the very first pumping away

> jobs I did was for a customer who was a royal

> PITA. I couldn't wait for the warranty period to

> expire on his new home. About a year after the

> warranty was past, Mr. PITA calls without heat.

> After explaining in very explicit terms that he

> was fired as a customer (one of only four to earn

> that distinction in all the years I've been in

> business), which caused him to pop his cork, he

> went off in search of another victim. That

> contractor had never before seen pumps installed

> on the supply side and told Mr. PITA that I was

> an idiot for placing them there. Naturally, that

> caused Mr. PITA to call with threats of suing me

> unless I repiped his 4-pump-zoning system as per

> the new mechanics specifications. You already

> know what my answer was(G). I bumped into the

> replacement victim a few months later and heard

> his tale of woe regarding how much of a royal

> PITA the "customer" was. I explained pumping away

> to him, but you could tell he thought I was from

> outer-space(G).

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 98&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Contractor"_/A_

jackchips_2

Come on Pah,

everyone knows you ARE from outer space.

Wasn't that you looking out of that golf cart that just landed on Mars?

How did you get back so fast, or have you got a DSL line up there already?

I only fired one customer in my 13 full time years and that was for yelling at my receptionist, although she rather I call her my wife.

Nice story.

hr

I'd rather the boiler manufactures not

include the circ pump. I just as soon buy my favorite brand, and size it for the job. They come in lots of sizes and colors, ya know

If I had a dollar for ever siezed circ I recieved delivered with the boiler....

hot rod

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John@Reliable_5

Glen, why not do this on the V-8

or give us a longer line! for the ones who want to do the right thing. And for the ones who still want to pipe on return, tell them the longer line is so they can move it away from boiler front so it doesn't melt and short out.John@Reliable

Unknown

We did

actually stop mounting the pump on both our oil and gas-fired boilers several years ago. Due to popular request from the oil side of the industry though, we put the pump back on the oil-fired boilers. The gas-fired boilers have remained with the pump not mounted with a longer wire. Hope this helps.

Glenn

Unknown

Hot Rod I am with you

include in the fact that when they came connected on the return someone dropped them off the loading platform or hit them with a fork lift and the housing was cracked. Maybe that only happens here in New England.

Hey let us start a movement here no more pumps shipped with boilers. No wait a minute then some DIY'er would hook it up and wonder why he had no heat - NO CIRCULATOR!!!

Andy Morgan_2

Actually

> include in the fact that when they came connected

> on the return someone dropped them off the

> loading platform or hit them with a fork lift and

> the housing was cracked. Maybe that only happens

> here in New England.

>

> Hey let us start a

> movement here no more pumps shipped with boilers.

> No wait a minute then some DIY'er would hook it

> up and wonder why he had no heat - NO

> CIRCULATOR!!!



One whosaler that I buy Weil-Mclain from, you buy the boiler w/ jacket and controls only. You have to buy the burner and circ seperately. This is on oil, not sure about gas.


Andy Morgan

R. Morgan Mechanical, LLC

Andy Morgan_2

One


whosaler that I buy Weil from sells the boiler less burner and less circ. You have to buy them seperately. Gives a lot of flexability between burner preferance and pump preferance/requirments.


Andy Morgan

R. Morgan Mechanical, LLC

bob young

pumping away not

i was doing a school job in about 1972 the hot water boiler was an american standard . the instruction diagrams clearly showed the pump on the supply side. we were completely baffled and installed it on the return as we always did.every thing worked o.k. and it was many years later that i realized how far ahead of their time amer. stnd. were. if i would have paid better attention i would have been also. oh well.

Floyd_5

Wow, Tim....

didn't expect you to get on the "bash the DIY" bandwagon...
Welcome!!!

Mark Eatherton1

Congratulation Glenn and Burnham!!

You've just re-garnered my respect and admiration. I wrote something about that a long time ago... I guess maybe someone at Burnham read it and heeded my advice. You're now my favorite big blue American boiler company:-)

This puts you light years ahed of some of your competition.

Keep up the great work.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

TESTY!?!?

Nah... Just tired of seeing people do things wrong. Remember, there is NO right way to do things wrong...

You will be glad to know that I'm already back to work. Flying a desk, yes, but none the less, back to work.

I went for my first session of "Pay for Pain", A.K.A. Physical Therapy today... They set me up with the cutest little blonde therapist you've ever seen... More later.

ME

tim smith_2

pumping away away away away

Mark, that was my post and I still say that on old large gravity conversions it does not make a ?!##### bit of difference. I do understand the ponpc. But guess what, alot of systems we work on are the old gravity conversions. I also believe that the pump away guy's who came into town a few years ago and were looking for a way to make a buck were over emphasizing this whole thing and made a mockery of it all. Just my 20 Cents worth. Tim.

Mark Eatherton1

That's the way...

it SHOULD be done. How can they look into theri crystal balls and see what I'm going to do with their appliance?

I appreciate their trying to help me out by providing a pump, but what if it's the wrong size? Will they pay for me to put in the right one?

Not on your life.

Reduce the price by the cost of the pump, and remind me that I"M responsible for sizing the pump and providing same.

Thanks for listening boiler manufacturers!!

ME

D lux_2

get

pic,s

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Unknown

Floyd, I will probably

get it for posting that. Oh well!!! when you get old you can say a lot of things, people think your just old and cranky.

Floyd_5

You lucky dog you.....

If it was me I know I would get the crustiest old hag there..
BTW, did you inform the boss???? AKA "the wife"...she may elect to perfom the therapy herself if she knows...like rip the arm right off.... my lips are sealed!

ScottMP

She's cute ?

Yea , wait till she starts pulling your arm into a position it dosn't want to go . Soon the black boots come out.

I think there called Physical terroists.

Good Luck

Scott

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ScottMP

Tim

Thats one of the benifits of old age, being testy.

I think we hit on something here. No More Pumps !

Today was the first boiler in years we did that was single zone. Wait a minute, it was primary secondary so once again I needed another pump. Besides Munchkin dos'nt give oyu a pump. Another point for HTP .

O.K. for the non-believers, how about the fact that the next time you change a circulator in the middle of the night, you don't have to bend over and squat on your knees ? If your not going to listen to facts, how about easy service ?

As I remember alot of the older commercial jobs we did, yeasr ago, had the pump on the supply. Did they do that just to blow off the competition ? Or did they know something ? How about Gil Carlson ? Just blowing smoke ?

To many reasons not to.

No More Pumps Milne

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Unknown

We offer them with any burner/pump combo that's ordered.

Let your supply house know how you prefer to buy them. That's no problem at all.

Noel

Mark J Strawcutter

doesn't matter?

> Mark, that was my post and I still say that on

> old large gravity conversions it does not make a

> ?!##### bit of difference. I do understand the

> ponpc. But guess what, alot of systems we work on

> are the old gravity conversions. I also believe

> that the pump away guy's who came into town a few

> years ago and were looking for a way to make a

> buck were over emphasizing this whole thing and

> made a mockery of it all. Just my 20 Cents worth.

> Tim.

Mark J Strawcutter

doesn't matter

on gravity conversions unless someone adds TRVs to the upper floor rads or simply throttles them down with their valves to avoid overheating the second floor and the circ starts cavitating.

Ask me how I know this :-)

Mark

heatboy

Why do manufacturers.....

give us pumps at all? How many times have we seen a 200MBH boiler come with a grey/black/green Taco 007? I have a crate full of these pumps that I can only use for service work because I'm a Grundfos guy. Take off $50 and keep the pump ;-)

hb

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ALH

Blindly following

I guess everyone has grabbed onto "pumping away" as if it was one of the Ten Commandments. I understand the reasons for pumping away, but in nearly all residential systems it's not an issue. Guess where the boiler & domestic pumps go on a Vitodens......on the return. Better to pull on the system than on the boiler. Just put the expansion tank in the correct location. I guess I'm just saying if it isnt an issue, chill out.

tim smith_2

Changes to systems

Yes mark, I agree if changes were made to a system that this could occur. I just found it to be too over emphasized 7 or 8 years ago on systems that had no changes to speak of and that no benefit value added when people were doing this.

steve gates

fixed two last week!

Kal Row

i think that

the 007 is to protect their boilers, it has the best flow rate in it's size and wattage class (and yes, like the grundfos better too - but the supposedly equivelant 15-42 has a lower flow - look at the published pump curves)

it doesnt have the starting torque or head of a old B&G but it does ok, and they get it real cheap, i think they would only be able to give you back 10 dollars if they left it out, so why bother, use it for vari-speed injection like i do, any of the tekmar mix controlers, handles it nicely
or sell it on ebay - you cant imagin how many homeowners out there are sick of oiling the b&g - and not everybody has a HOME-DEsPOT nearby

Unknown

A little ancient history

My mentor a gent by the name of Bill Morgan who I am eternally grateful to for really pushing me to learn and to think outside the norm. He was the first person I ever remember talking about circulator location, he did not call it pumping away, he simply said it makes sense to put the circulator on the supply and not the return. He actually had two of the same boilers in the lab and would demonstrate air bound systems for us and the advantages of as he said the circulator on the supply. That was in 1966.

In 1976 when I replaced him as the trainer at the gas company I had the rep from Bell and Gosset come in and do classes. They would give out "Rules of Thumb" and take us through if I remember correctly The Little Red Schoolhouse. That was when I was reintroduced to what was now called "pumping away". I later met Dan Holohan at a seminar we did in New Hampshire and there it was again. I really had not been a believer and sort of followed the way the boiler came (pump on the return). I have come to see by actual system set up that it is a good idea. I do agree with some posting here that in some cases it may not make a lot of difference at least that has been my experience. I am not running out and changing every system. I do now however install that way on every new job. I also recommend it to others when asked.

Interesting after I had met Dan and read his book my memory was awakened and I dug into some of my old class notes from Bill Morgan, Dan you will love this, there in the notes was a reference to Gil Carlson who Bill Morgan had met at some point in his career in the hydronics world and was teching us some of his hydronic know how.

It really is a small world.

Mark J Strawcutter

added benefit

Many/most gravity conversions have steel (non-bladder) expansion tanks. Combine pumping away with an air-trol fitting on the tank, eliminate bleeding radiators and periodic draining of waterlogged expansion tank.

Mark

Mark J Strawcutter

Of course

Don't you know that the 007 is a "universal" circulator?
:-)

Mark

Kal Row

N.P.S.H !!!

nobody's talking about Net Positive Suction Head,

it may be better from and NPSH standpoint to put the pump on the return with the expansion thank before so it, so it's sill pumping away from the point of 0 pressure change,

colder water is lees likely to localy boil (read cavitate) on the sudden pressure drop in the eye of the pump than hot water is, should make for a quieter system especially since the boiler succeding it can act as a sound damper, the only drawback is that, it's best to have the air scoop or spirovent (whattever) at the hostest temp and highest static pressure point, and with the expasion tank befor the pump on the return line you lose that feature

Gordy

I love this site and the Rpa site. As a homeowner with radiant heat I monitor these sites daily to learn and laugh, you guys are a blessing.

As for the pumping away, I have had three different profesionals do a yearly inspection on my system which is a ceiling radiant and floor radiant closed loop system. House built in 1952, it was my grandparents which built it so I know the history.
When I bought the house I did my research on the system being in the trades "wood tick" I'm very curious on how things function and like to learn and understand them.
I called the original installer to give me a walk through of the system first thing he said was the pump should have been on the supply side but granny did not want to spring the extra 700.00. I had already read up on these sites including pumping away from the B&G site.As he was telling me this I thought to myself, if that was how it is suppose to be than why did you not just figure it right in the bid instead of an option, also looking at the new copper installed on the supply side I could not comprehend 700.00 to mount the circulator on the supply side.
Second company I had out the following year after seeing a few things original installer did not do as I have read should be done,I asked him what he thought about the pump location he said it is not that big of a deal which side it went on and went on to critisize original installer for putting automatic air vents in system with steel compression tank,and no shut off valves on both sides of the circulator and on the supply side of boiler so the whole system would not have to be drained to change out pump or boiler, so I had him do this for me there is 4500' of copper tubing in my system. He was a nice guy eager to discuss any questions I had.
Third company I had out the following year because company 2 was no longer in buisness so I asked this gentleman what he thought about circulator location and he said return side always.
So I decided to test the theory myself I put a pressure gauge on the supply side after the boiler and mixing valve and one on the return side just before the circulator where automatic air vents were.Well at 12 psi I get about 6 psi on gauge just before the circulator so my pressure falls 5 psi from the point of no pressure change. So I say it can be a problem if my system pressure happens to fall below 12 I could suck air into system as I have read. I have no leaks. I bumped my pressure upto 15psi.which raises a question is it bad to have the pressure higher than the 12 psi I understand you don't want it so high as to pop the prv but in my situation until I get it resolved would it help to bump up the pressure to help keep the air entrained in the water? I run pump continuous which helps also among other benifits.
And yes I do have to burp air periodically from my returns because original installer never put a spiro vent in the system or even a airtrol fitting on the steel compression tank. Incidentally I asked the original installer if he had ever checked out this site or the RPA and told him the wealth of information and great discussions on these sites, and his reply was "I have been doing boilers since I was 14 with my Dad." I had to go get my sunglasses so he could not see me roll my eyes the rest of the time he was there. Sorry so long winded and would appreciate comments. And thanks for taking the time to answer questions and discuss topics,you can tell when people enjoy their work!

Gordy

I love this site and the Rpa site. As a homeowner with radiant heat I monitor these sites daily to learn and laugh, you guys are a blessing.

As for the pumping away, I have had three different profesionals do a yearly inspection on my system which is a ceiling radiant and floor radiant closed loop system. House built in 1952, it was my grandparents which built it so I know the history.

When I bought the house I did my research on the system being in the trades "wood tick" I'm very curious on how things function and like to learn and understand them.

I called the original installer to give me a walk through of the system first thing he said was the pump should have been on the supply side but granny did not want to spring the extra 700.00. I had already read up on these sites including pumping away from the B&G site.As he was telling me this I thought to myself, if that was how it is suppose to be than why did you not just figure it right in the bid instead of an option, also looking at the new copper installed on the supply side I could not comprehend 700.00 to mount the circulator on the supply side.

Second company I had out the following year after seeing a few things original installer did not do as I have read should be done,I asked him what he thought about the pump location he said it is not that big of a deal which side it went on and went on to critisize original installer for putting automatic air vents in system with steel compression tank,and no shut off valves on both sides of the circulator and on the supply side of boiler so the whole system would not have to be drained to change out pump or boiler, so I had him do this for me there is 4500' of copper tubing in my system. He was a nice guy eager to discuss any questions I had.

Third company I had out the following year because company 2 was no longer in buisness so I asked this gentleman what he thought about circulator location and he said return side always.

So I decided to test the theory myself I put a pressure gauge on the supply side after the boiler and mixing valve and one on the return side just before the circulator where automatic air vents were.Well at 12 psi I get about 6 psi on gauge just before the circulator so my pressure falls 5 psi from the point of no pressure change. So I say it can be a problem if my system pressure happens to fall below 12 I could suck air into system as I have read. I have no leaks. I bumped my pressure upto 15psi.which raises a question is it bad to have the pressure higher than the 12 psi I understand you don't want it so high as to pop the prv but in my situation until I get it resolved would it help to bump up the pressure to help keep the air entrained in the water? I run pump continuous which helps also among other benifits.
And yes I do have to burp air periodically from my returns because original installer never put a spiro vent in the system or even a airtrol fitting on the steel compression tank. Incidentally I asked the original installer if he had ever checked out this site or the RPA and told him the wealth of information and great discussions on these sites, and his reply was "I have been doing boilers since I was 14 with my Dad." I had to go get my sunglasses so he could not see me roll my eyes the rest of the time he was there. Sorry so long winded and would appreciate comments. And thanks for taking the time to answer questions and discuss topics,you can tell when people enjoy their work!