Does this look correct???

Dak

This is a new system that was installed by a local contractor. I am the homeowner that is looking for any help as to why my system does not seem to work properly.

I have 5 zones: Basement slab (pump on far left 2400sf), 3 zones on first floor (from left - laundry 288sf, greatroom 1536sf, master bedroom 576sf), 1 zone for 2nd floor. The 2nd floor is using a hot water/forced air system. The circulator for the 2nd floor is on the second floor next to the air handler.

Check valves were installed above the circulators last week after I noticed that water was being pulled from the zones that were not running. I have shut off my basement completely because it stays around 65deg's with no heat.

The circulators are all the same size/capacity. The 1/2" pex tubes were installed under the subfloor using plastic clips. Bubble wrap was stapled tight against the tubes and sides of the TGI's. We have Wirsbo wall "air" thermostats on the first floor.

We keep our heat set at 67deg. Here are some things that I have noticed that make me concerned.

1. First floor - Even after the check valves have been installed I can close off the valve to the laundry zone (when it's not running) I can feel the tubes in the other two zones that are circulating get hotter. When I open the laundry valve back up the other running zones cool off. I noticed this problem becaues my laundry room was feeling warmer as the temp outside was droping and the zone was never calling for heat from the thermostat. The laundry pump was never running. I noticed that the return tube was warm that led me to believe the water was being pulled through the system backwards.

2. When no circulators are running the bottom horizontal copper pipe and the copper and tubing connected to the 3rd pump from the right are always hot. All of the horizontal pipes are 3/4" copper that are attached to a 1" copper pipe. The 1" copper pipe is a loop from the top of the water heater, with a circulator that does not shut off, back too the bottom of the water heater. It is the only pipe that has insulation on it. We are told that the circulator has to run all the time to prevent the water heater from being shocked from the cold water in the system when a zone turns on.

3. In a previous post I had asked how often the water heater should run. When it runs it only runs for 2 minutes. It seems to run every 8 to 10 minutes whether the system is calling for hot water or not. It is used for both domestic and radiant heating. It is a Triangle Tube PG45 Delta Performance using Propane. We are burning way too much propane. 400-500 gallons a month. This is the only appliance using propane. It looks like a 10(?) deg differential from the time the water heater turns on untill it shuts off. We keep the water heater at 140 deg's.

4. I have read about aluminum transfer plates that can be used to pull more heat out of the tubes. Should I be concerned about the method that was used? Should they have used transfer plates with the reflective bubble wrap or are they not needed?

5. What is the point of the mixing valve? I have been told that it keeps the water from going above 140 deg through the tubing. It is mixing return water with the 140 deg water and pushing that through the zones. I am being told that this is decreasing the water to about 110 deg. What sense does that make? I would think you would want as close to 140 as possible in order to get the most heat from the tubes. Why keep the water heater at 140 if it is going to be mixed down to 110? Is there any way to measure the temp of the water in the tubes?

If anyone has any idea's or suggestions we are looking for any help we can get. I am also trying to find another local contractor in my area to get a second opinion.

Mark Eatherton1

Man-o-man...

Where to begin?? First off, in addition to the picture and your verbal description, it would be extremely helpful if you could generate a simple piping schematic using MS Paint or whatever program you're comfortable with.

The 140 degree water temperatures MIGHT be adequate for some spaces, but it all depends on the loss factors for the rooms, the floor coverings, tube density and other stuff. I hope this guy at least had a heat loss calculation performed before he started...

The basement floor shouldn't need to see more than 110 degree F water if it's not covered by carpet or some other high resistance floor covering.

It sounds as if the installer was trying to do what is known as primary/secondary piping, but it's impossible to tell from the photographs you've provided. Maybe you can get some closer shots of the piping on the board and near the boiler. Do a drawing showing the piping too if you can.

There's agood chance that your high heating bill has to do with what we call ghost flow. It's also called gravity circulation. The check valves that were installed on the pump will stop water from flowing backwards, but won't stop it from gravity flowing forwards. Especially up to the fan coil unit on the top floor.

Help us to help you, and hopefully we'll get your system rectified and avoid another bad mouthing of the most comfortable system in the world...

Boy is your contractor going to be unhappy with you:-)

ME

hr

Wow

First off, did the job have a heatloss and design? If so it should give you a zone by zone requirement for gpm and required temperature. I add up about 4800 square feet?

Some temperature gauges would be nice Generally a 3 way thermostatic mix valve needs at least 15 degree warmer temperature in the primary loop than the desired output temperature, to make them respond.

If you are running 140 boiler temperature, you probably will not see much above 120 to the zones with the mix valves. this may not be warm enough to meet the load.

I've never seen two 3 ways piped exactly that way. Looks like they are in series?

120F seems low for a suspended tube application with possibly not enough insulation below the tube? Once again the system design would give you those temperature requirements.

What are the floor coverings, keep in mind they are insulators and futher imped the ability of the floor to heat the space with low supply temperatures.


You may be constipated. No, not you the boiler. If it is short cycling it's not getting the BTU's to the load.


At this point you need an accurate road map (heat loss and design) Maybe a fresh one as an "as built" and a way to see exactly what's going on with that creative piping> Mainly gauges.

A fresh set of knowledgable contractors eyes at the job site would be helpful:) Some temperature and flow coaching may get you to where you're going. Keep trying, you'll get advise here, but you will need a hands on person with tools and measuring devices, and hydronic knowledge, in your basement.

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dave_24

I will work on those drawings tomorrow. I will also get some closer pics. We currently are walking on subfloor. I have not installed my perm. flooring yet. It will be 1x12 pine flooring throughout most of the house with a little tile mixed in for bathrooms and laundry room.

My basement is 2400sf, first floor is 2400sf and the 2nd floor is about 800sf heated space.

dave_24

This is a picture that represents the manifold in my first picture. I hope it helps. I will also post more closeup pics later. The circulators are all the same.

Taco Cartridge Circulator
Model 006-B4
HP-1/40 AMP-.52
HZ 60
Volts 115
RPM 3250
Max Water Temp 220

The Pex is Wirsbo 1/2 under the floor and some 3/4 to each individual manifold.

Floyd_5

Looks to me like....

just one loop/zone....do you have an idea of the loop lengths??? there are ft. markings on the tubing... 1/2 should not be over 250ft long, espec. with that pump.

Your gonna have to completely rework what you got there....
don't know what to say....but sorry......

Mark Wolff

Questions

First off, the ball valve controlling the flow of hot water to zone 5 is incorrect to be polite. From the picture you posted and the drawing you made, it is fairly obvious to even a mildly trained eye that your contractor was cutting corners where he thought he could (undersized expansion tank and no controls) and wasting money where he didn't know better (multiple pumps instead of one pump and zone valves for the low temp piping). The contractor whether out of cost saving or lack of knowledge avoided at all costs any controls or wiring, to the systems detriment. Currently the circ pump on the water heater is running continuously when it shouldn't be, the loop to the HVAC heat exchanger is running continuously when it shouldn't, and that flow is causing directional ghost flow through the other zones in your system. Speaking of HVAC, the 140* water is probably not adequate to heat 2400 sq ft of second floor (really the 3rd floor), especially with that choked off ball valve on the return. I seriously doubt the contractor did any sort of heat loss calculations, and am curious about how the rest of the house fares temperature wise. I would venture to bet that on a really cold day -unless you live in southern Florida- that your water heater might have trouble keeping up with the heating demand you have placed on it. How many square feet is your house again? 7200 sq. ft (2400 x 3; 2400 basement, 2400 1st floor, 2400 second floor)? Also, the 006 circ pump pushing tubing for a 2400 sq ft slab sounds a little on the small side. Also check, there is a difference between a domestic water TEMPERING VALVE and a 3 way mixing valve, a big difference. The piping diagram below calls for the latter, your picture looks like the former.

To answer your questions...

1. First floor - Even after the check valves have been installed I can close off the valve to the laundry zone (when it's not running) I can feel the tubes in the other two zones that are circulating get hotter. When I open the laundry valve back up the other running zones cool off. I noticed this problem becaues my laundry room was feeling warmer as the temp outside was droping and the zone was never calling for heat from the thermostat. The laundry pump was never running. I noticed that the return tube was warm that led me to believe the water was being pulled through the system backwards.


*It sounds like your laundry room zone is the shortest path for unwanted water flow. The biggest challenge with circ pump systems other than cost is the lack of positive zone closure. Check valves ensure proper flow direction, but do not eliminate venturi effect (water passing by the return pipes draws water from the return pipes, creating flow) flow from an oversized pump operating with an undersized manifold. There is no justification for the use of 1" on that manifold REGARDLESS of btu passage rates. With that many 3/4" supplies an 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" manifold would greatly help; it allows the hot water to circulate better in the manifold, allowing it to reach all the supply pipes. Hot water is flowing through your laundry room loop and causing a deficiency in btu's available for the other zones until you shut the ball valve, then the water is available for the other zones. This is magnified by the small supply manifold.



We are told that the circulator has to run all the time to prevent the water heater from being shocked from the cold water in the system when a zone turns on.


*Negative. Traditional cast iron boilers are suceptible to something called "shocking". You have a large mass of relatively brittle CAST IRON that can in extreme cases crack due to very cold pockets of water cooling isolated areas of the cast iron sections while the surrounding metal is still very hot. When the hot/cold situation occurs it can (IN CAST IRON boilers) shock the boiler and crack a section of it. In a water heater DESIGNED for rapid heating of COLD water, with a steel shell (not cast iron), you should have absolutely no possible situation where shocking could occur. The very idea is actually rather funny.



In a previous post I had asked how often the water heater should run. When it runs it only runs for 2 minutes. It seems to run every 8 to 10 minutes whether the system is calling for hot water or not. It is used for both domestic and radiant heating.



* Remember, with the circulator on full time you are introducing hot water to a (relatively) colder pipe as it leave the water heater, passes through the circ pump, and goes back into the water heater. The circ pump loses quite a bit of heat (just touch it!). If what you are saying is that the heating system and domestic water come out of the same tank, the circ pump is required by plumbing code to be bronze.


We are burning way too much propane. 400-500 gallons a month.


*That's because it is running too much for the reasons stated above, and water heaters aren't as efficient as boilers.



4. I have read about aluminum transfer plates that can be used to pull more heat out of the tubes. Should I be concerned about the method that was used?



*Tubing secured with plastic straps is fine as long as they did a heat loss calculation for the building and determined proper tubing spacing (probably 6-9" apart).



I am being told that this is decreasing the water to about 110 deg. What sense does that make?


*Slab radiant heat (embedded in gypcrete or concrete) requires no more than 110* in most scenarios. Staple up, requires up to 125* in most scenarios. 140* water in your tubing will create an uncomfortably warm floor in the process of heating your living space. To compensate for a lower temperature designers decrease the spacing between tubes to increase the btu output without increasing the floor temperature.



Is there any way to measure the temp of the water in the tubes?


*Laser temperature gauges work best. On the copper, spray some flat black primer or paint on it first (the temperature reading is much more accurate).



I am also trying to find another local contractor in my area to get a second opinion.


*Sounds wise at this point. Check the Find a Professional section of this website to locate someone for a personal visit. Hope this helps you some.

P.S. The electrical code does not allow the use of romex (regular house wire) in exposed areas. The wires to the circ pumps all look like they were run with romex. A call to your local building department will confirm this requirement for your area (most of the country agrees). Also TECHNICALLY (I sometimes fudge a little for an old lady with no heat!) plumbers and boiler techs aren't allowed to touch anything over 50 volt wiring. If this was a replacement, an electrician really should have been called and scheduled to run the wiring in this situation.


****Here is the piping schematic from Triangle Tube on the PG45. It can also be found at http://www.triangletube.com/Residential/DeltaProduct/Performance/PGPiping.htm

under the Primary piping multiple temperature systems button.

masterplumb

Why

are there Ferncos on the PVC piping before and after the 90* elbows??? Chris

dave_24

Re: why?

they are patch work untill i get a slip joint. This is a log home and the original plumber did not allow for movement. The 90 that was installed needed to be cut out beacuse it was leaking so i put a quick fixed on it untill I get a slip joint.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Log Home

Often the radiant engineering nightmare so I hear...

masterplumb

How

Do you allow for movement? Please explain. Chris

Mike T., Swampeast MO

http://www.logassociation.org/resources/standards.pdf

Look towards the end of the document for some DWV illustrations. I've heard of the slip joints that have to be used on log homes but be damned if I can find the actual components on the web.

hr

A LOG home?

That type of construction takes some special care. An infiltration number is hard to determine.

R-value for round logs was always fuzzy math, for me. The weak link was where the round logs stacked on top of one another. Even a 10" log has a small contact area, from log to log. Notches, grooves, saddle joints, all rely haeavily on the "gasket" at that point.

If in fact you have shrinking and settling, and you are wise to plan for it!, I'll bet you have the potential for future air leaks. In addition to current ones It's the nature of logs.

Rarely can a "glass ended" log home be heated with just the floors. We often had the log contractor cut the first course log with a flat side inside to allow us to mount HW baseboard supplemental heat.

I've seen log framers leave up to 4" of shrinkage movement above doors and windows. Without it count on cracked windows and bound doors.a

I used to do a lot of log homes, both plumbing and heating. Yes, you need slip joints in the vertical DWV runs. Used to be a nice deep o-ring slip coupling Maybe Sloan (the PVC manufacture) was the manufacture. Been a few years ago! Fernco's and no-hub couplings are not a good substitue, believe me.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Another of my weird ideas...

I've been wondering for quite a while why radiant panels seem to have such difficulty with log homes.

Just infiltration? Seems kind of strange when radiant is a very good choice in busy garages, fire stations and the like where air changes per hour are extremely high. Yea, I understand that such is usually a place of physical activity where you don't really want a high air temp anyway but it still just seems odd.

Beyond the "fuzzy logic" of the insulation value of log walls, I have an idea of what might be going on...

That high infiltration is likely coming from a huge number of very small leaks along the log joints. Ordinarly, cool portions of a wall will "suck" more radiant energy. BUT, we're not talking about a simple flat wall here--those leaks and cold spots are in strange curving areas.

Maybe, just maybe, the coldest portions of the walls can hardly "see" the panel to "suck" the heat... The infiltrating air starts cooling the portions that can be "seen" well by the panel and you wind up with hideously complex convection with infiltration AND exfiltration along the cracks. Talk about "fuzzy" logic...

Look at the sketch with an open mind and you might see where I'm coming from.

hr

Actually

there are some square log homes I have worked on that work well. Milled and dried with a type of T&G joint between, and on the ends helps. I'm not sure what type of log home this homeowner might have.

It's the air leaks, mainly. Today I had a service call on a large timber frame house I radiantly heated, five years ago. The house keeper told me she could walk around with a candle and in areas it was blown out by the drafts.

Ouch, 600 gallons of LP some months. A 250,000 Lochinvar with step fire runs radiant floor with supplemental floor box VRV convectors under the large glass.

They did have two large fireplace dampers open, that we addressed. Still hard to seal those big timbers and joints.

But it sure is pretty to look at

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Mark Wolff

Log Home

Sounds like you have a knack for picking so-so contractors. Sorry to hear that. I thought every plumber knew about slip joints for the waste AND vent, and expansion jogs for the piping (pex is much better than copper in these installs).

Let me reiterate your urgent need to have a competent heating professional look at your system NOW before any other work is done. Major corrections to your system may very well be required for adequate system function.

Here in Alaska we deal with log homes regularly and as others have mentioned, the planning process for their heating is totally different than that of a stick built home.

Ray Landry

closley spaced tees

The injection piping for the radiant has two very FAR apart tees.. looks wrong to me by pumping away standars and even accornding the the triangle tube instructions

dave_24

can you explain more


I am still learning the system and I am a little confused what t's you are talking about.

jp_2

"Bubble wrap was stapled tight against the tubes and sides of the TGI's."

If i understand this right. you do not want the bubble wrap "tight" against anything. especially if you are trying to use it as a heat reflector and not an insulator(its a poor insulator). everything I've read about bubble wrap suggests 1-2" air gap from the tubing.
thats probably why your basement is so warm, heat is coming from the subfloor above.

Ray Landry

The tee's I'm referring to are the first and last tees on the 1" vertical pipe which serve your radiant loop. They need to be a MAX of 12" as per the triangle tube piping schetch and Mr. Holohan himself. I've never really fully grasped why this is so crucial.. I think someting to do with too much of a pressure difference if the tees are to far apart... Also as otehrs have stated I'm perplexed as to why he used to three way mixing valves for the radiant.. This guy didn't seem to grasp what he was doing...

dave_24

the mixing valve on the far left is for my basement slab. I asked the same questions and was told that it was needed to reduce the temp even more then the tubes heating the other areas because it would crack the concrete if it was to hot.

My understanding of the t's was that each one should not be more then 12 inch's appart. But my understanding is just from reading the past weeks to do my best to figure out what is going on. I will do more research on this, thanks.

Ray Landry

Your tees for your radiant are far MORE than 12" apart. If you follow the pipes it's the first and last 1x3/4 tees off the piping manifold. Also, you have two three way mixing valves serving this loop (one on the left, one on the right) When you really only need one... it's just redundancy.

Mark Eatherton1

Possible fix...

Sorry for hanging anyone out to dry...

Here's what I see as a fix. It's about as simple as I can make it for the situation. You still have a lot of home work to do to see if whats configured will be capable of maintaining the home. Tis is just a near boiler pipe fix. Is your contractor willing to do the work? If he is, have him contact me and I'll try and talk him through it. My email address is markeatherton@hotmail.com

Let's see what the other wallies think of this quick fix for your design.

ME

dave_24

They added that bottom run off of the basement zone because they thought the basement was taking away from the return from the other zones. As you can see by the 30deg angle in the copper. They cut that and piped it below the rest.

Mark Wolff

Question Mark

With that drawing, it appears that your staple up zones will be receiving too hot a water temperature. Also, zone 5 to the upstairs hvac heat exchanger needs to be before the "injection" manifold to allow for the higher temp requirements it has. Just a thought.

dave_24

2nd opinion

I just had another contractor in to look at the system. As I expected his opinion was to rip out the copper, pumps, check valves on the basement manifold and start over. His opinion is that the copper and pumps are sized too small. The 3 way mixing valves should be replaced with better valves. The check valves are wrong. There are more items on the list but I just wanted to put these out there for anyone to comment on.

I am very confused at this point because I just heard complete different explanations for questions that I would think should be common knowledge for someone that is supposed to do this work on a daily basis.

Mark Eatherton1

Exclamation Mark

Mark, In my experience, suspended tube requires 140 degree F, or hotter water to work well. Fan coil units can be operated with water temps as low as 120 degrees F with no detrimental side effects.

A person could flip flop the S&R branches if they wanted to, but I think I'd rather hit the radiant floor with the highest temp available.

ME

hr

I like

ME's piping layout. My fix would be close to that I'd make sure you have adequate boiler return protection if that is not a condensing boiler.

I'm not sure what you mean by better 3 way valves, unless they are undersized for the GPM requirement?

Same with the pump sizing. If the load of the zones has been calulated, the pumps either fit the spec or they don't.

I wouldn't scrap good parts if they are the "right" parts.

As you have noticed 10 contractors may have 10 different fix options. All may work just fine. We all have piping and component favorites.

If the boiler, piping, mix valves, pumps are all selected for the task, and put together in a workable, repairable, professional fashion, to the manufactures directions, then the goal is obtained.

You can make yourself crazy with to much input. Find a recommended pro, ask for references, and trust his solution.

Or hire an mechanical engineer to design a system and get bids to his exact drawings.

Unless you want to pay all of us to show up and hammer out a system for you

I understand your frustration but, this really is not that complicated of a job.


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