heating a garage

Dale and Janet

Please advise best heating option for attached garage with following characteristics, NorthEastern Ohio: 529 sq. feet (approx 2 1/2 car), 10' height. Walls R-13 behind 5/8 drywall, ceiling holds R-30 on sides, R-13 in middle 8'(so as not to extend above 2X4 truss). Pull down stairs access. Concrete floor. Insulated overhead door, not opened much. All electric home, no natural gas, propane could be brought in in 100lb tanks. Just need a comfortable evening repair shop/hangout/TV watching /beer drinking area. Was going to go for a direct wire 240V 5000W 17,OOO BTU heater, but now am thinking that 25-30,000BTU propane might be best, heat and efficiency-wise. Any thoughts, anyone?

Dale

Hot Dog

A nice space heater used alot in Wisconsin is the Modine "hot dog" a direct vent unit. Johnstone supply sells them, I'm not sure if they are available in LP but I would think so.

adambuild

Propane Heater

We just installed a Mr. Heater MH25NG, wall-mounted, 25000btu infrared radiant heater for a client in NJ and they love it. It even has a simple remote thermostat that could be replaced with a millivolt compatible setback thermostat if so interested. Bought it online for $270.00 @ Amazon.com.

adambuild

Propane Heater

We just installed a Mr. Heater MH25NG, wall-mounted, 25000btu infrared radiant heater for a client in NJ and they love it. It even has a simple remote thermostat that could be replaced with a millivolt compatible setback thermostat if so interested. Bought it online for $270.00 @ Amazon.com.

PS- The nice thing is that it doesn't require an exhaust. Just a fresh air intake which is usually easy in the garage.

Dale and Janet

thanks, we've been looking at all the different models on the web, but I guess our questions are more fundamental. Which is more efficient, elec or propane? How many BTUs needed for comfort? Does propane smell? Radiant or infared? Wall mount or ceiling mount (one that looks like a flourescent fixture). Just a lot of variables, I guess, but thanks for the input thus far.

Bill_14

Hot/Dawg -- Modine

This is your very best option...propane or NG.

http://hot-dawg.modine.com/unleash.php?expand_index=0

Bill Nye

oil?

I put a Monitor kerosene stove in a sportsman's clubhouse. They love it! Insurance company was after them because wood was their sole source of heat.

I was unsure if it would heat the building [much bigger than your garage] No problem! very quiet, sealed combustion, very quiet fan.

Sealed combustion is good in a workshop. Especially if you paint or finish wood.

Hope this link works. [cut & paste] http://www.adirondackhardware.com/monitor422.html

Dale and Janet

see? too darn confusing

now we got recommendations for a 40K Btu Modine Hot Dawg ($500), a 25K Mr. Heater wall mount ($270) and a oil fired ($900+). So, is electricity out altogether? What to do, what to do...

John@Reliable_5

Now to really confuse you!

How about changing your complete house system to hot water and just make the garage an zone!

Dale and Janet

ahh, you're all wet! LOL

Mike T., Swampeast MO

"Which is more efficient, elec or propane?"

Electric is 100% efficient when used for heating--but ONLY from the FINAL point of view. When various energy markets are close to parity regarding BTUs in vs BTUs out, I believe electric is the most "expensive" to use for space heating. Markets fluctuate though and energy is especially volatile...

"Does propane smell?"

Naturally, I believe no. Sulphur compounds are added so that you can easily smell a problem.

"Radiant or infared?"

Radiant really is infrared. BUT, the hotter the radiant surface more the distinction is blurred between infrared and visible light. The hotter the radiating surface the greater the output BUT the more it tends to become extremely directional--like an open fire on a cold night when you really wish that you could be rotating...

"Wall mount or ceiling mount (one that looks like a flourescent fixture)."

Personal opinion is that ceiling mount would be preferable in your application.

jim lockard

Maybe we should just move on to the beer drinking and hanging out part. J.Lockard

Mark Wolff

I though...

if you drink enough you don't notice the cold?

Dale and Janet

thanks Mike T.

now we're getting somewhere. Here's some follow up, if you don't mind: OK, elec is 100% efficient, what I probably meant to ask is which--elec or propane--is more expensive. I take it that's hard to say, given the volitility of energy markets. When I ask does propane smell, I meant as a heating source, while it burns. Does it matter if it's vented or not? If so, what are the (dis)advantages of venting otherwise? Radiant or infared was wrong terminology if they are the same, what I meant to ask is, according to my web reading, there are two ways of heating, one heats the air, one the surrounding objects, which is better for my application? Got ya--understand--on your preference for a ceiling attached heater in my application. Another q--I could punch in a "return duct" through the garage common wall into the return ducting to my in-house electric furnace, would this be a good idea, or a stupid one? Thanks.

Dale and Janet

that's true, but it's a fine line--drink too much and Janet makes me sleep in the garage, then I REALLY notice the cold!

Dale

Last question = No

Do not, it is unsafe and not code, mix the garage air and the house air, much too easy to get car Co into the house. As for price look at the lp output btu and the watt = btu conversion and then compare. I usually find any gas to be cheaper per btu then regular rate electric. Your local propane supplier will have the comparison at his fingertips.

Dale and Janet

OK

OK, though I've not stored the cars in the garage, at least as of yet. What I did do, stupidly, was run a duct from the heating portion of the electric house furnance ductwork in the basement TO the garage, thinking that might heat it up some. It didn't, and so I've got that run temporarily sealed off. I'll make it permanent before I do anything else.

Art Pittaway

Unvented...!

I didn't see any warnings about it on the Mr.Heater web site, but these heaters will produce CO and are not for use in a truely closed room. I will bet if you get specific about it they will give you a ventilation requirement or warning to cover there legal rear ends. If the garage is fairly well sealed and you buy one of the radiant heaters, spend an extra $150 for a "CO Experts" detector. I almost bought one for my attached garage but didn't because of the CO issue. The Modine HotDog or it's equals are vented and are just a furnace without the ductwork. You could also stand a downflow furnace in the corner, electric or gas, use it as a small heat rotation system. Pull the heat off your 10' ceiling and spread it across the floor. Air conditioning??

scrook_2

electricity vs fuel

electric resistance heat is 100% efficient from your meter to your heater, but the generation & distribution efficiency from the fuel at the power plant to your meter may be on the order of 30% vs. 80%-90% for LP, NG or oil depending on the fuel and type of equipment.

1 kW-hr of electricity is equiv to 3413 BTU of heat, so 93,000 BTU/gal LP burned at 82% is (93,000*.82)/3413 = 22.3 kW-hr equivelant, or at 90% = 24.5 kW-hr.

140,000 BTU/gal oil burned at 84% is (140,000*.84) = 34.5 kW-hr.

Likewise, for those w/ natural gas available, 100 cubic feet of NG (about 100,000 BTU or 100 Therms) at 82% = 24.0 kW-hr and at90% = 26.4 kW-Hr

Oil in Ohio is running ~$1.25/gal this year to date, LP ~$1.25-$1.40/gal (www.eia.doe.gov) electricity there is what ~$.09/kW-hr?

Oil may be an attractive option, LP will be a fair amount more per BTU, but electricity is likely the most expensive per BTU but the cheapest installed cost, so depending how often you need to heat the garage, how warm and for how long, your best option may vary. If you only heat it only occasionally, the payback for oil or LP may be many years.

scrook_2

vent it!

absolutely, positively used a vented fuel burning heater not unvented excepting *occasional/one-time/emergency* heating with the garage door *wide open*, where, for *short times*, you could get away w/ a LP or kero burning unvented heater -- however you still have to be careful about CO buildup.

Too, as the garage is heating load small, you might look at *vented* kerosene (#1 oil) burning heaters. Figure 134,000 BTU/gal and pricing somewhat higher than #2 Heating Oil but likely still cheaper than LP per BTU.

Dale and Janet

wow schrook!

I like the quality of that info. Now if I could get a handle on the appropriate BTU needed. It will be for only occassional heating, to be comfortable with a hooded sweatshirt, not for nudity. I typically hang out there for 2-3 hours after the kids hit the hay. But the propane unit is roughly equivalent price-wise to the elec unit, and I would do the install myself. What confuses me is some sites say the 17K BTU Dayton elec is OK for 500 sq.ft., while Modine recommends a 45K BTU propane for a 2 1/2 car garage. Recall, my garage IS 2 1/2, and 529 sqft. So which is it?

Dale

Unvented

When you described what you wanted which I saw as a fair amount of comfort in a garage I ruled out unvented. Unvented is legal in some states and is ok in a barn or something really drafty or at tiny inputs in a closed room orat low inputs in a garage if the fixed opening draft holes are cut and kept open. If you go unvented and keep the garage nice and warm you will have CO and lots of moisture freezing against the garage door. If you decide on unvented follow all instructions and get one with an oxygen depletion sensor. To me unvented heaters are like drain free toilets, they sound good until you think about it a bit.

Mijola

Since you are already using electric heat for the house, just install an electric heater. It will cost a little more to operate than propane, but you won't have the expense of pipng for the propane, or the hassle of having to refill the propane tank.

Mijola

Since you are already using electric heat for the house, just install an electric heater. It will cost a little more to operate than propane, but you won't have the expense of piping for the propane, or the hassle of having to refill the propane tank. And no worries about the venting problems associated with burning propane.

Mijola

Since you are already using electric heat for the house, just install a new electric heater. It will cost a little more to operate than propane, but you won't have the expense of piping for the propane, or the hassle of having to refill the propane tank. And no worries about the venting problems associated with burning propane.

ScottMP

What about Rinnia

Depending on how nice the room will be why not put a Rinnia room heater or a Emerson warm morning. Both are sealed combustion direct vent, look nice and won't blow that much air around.

If your doing projects, won't the hotdawg blow air around ?

Just one more thought.

Scott

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