new munchkin boiler, not enough heat

Nick W

Hello to all experts. Please send advice!
We just spent 14K on a new munchkin boiler and superstor hot water heater which were installed in our attached garage. The old boiler had been inside the house. The new installation (of this hot water heat system) was done by running 4 lengths of 1 and 3/4" plastic pipes through the ceiling from the new boiler location in the garage to the old location in the laundry room (a distance of about 40 to 50 feet), where the new zone valves are now located. The boiler is a 140 Munchkin and the pump/circulator is a Taco 007. I discovered by reading the manual for the boiler that this pump is too small for this boiler. Could this explain why we never get real heat in the rooms that are at the end of each of the 3 zones? If I turn the thermostat to 90 (all the way up), the room barely reaches 75 in the zone that is farthest from the new boiler. In the other 2 zones, only the room that is last in the loop is not warm enough while the others reach the set temperature. Also, 2 of the 3 zones could have been connected directly to the boiler with zone valves right at the boiler (with minor sheet rock holes) rather than having this long run before getting to the zone valve and then retracing back to the areas needing heat. Instinctively, I think that would have been a better idea and we would then only have needed a single 1" plastic pipe running through the ceiling to the old boiler room making so much less volume for the pump to pump over there and meaning the pump only had to pump that water a much shorter distance. Is it worth it for me to have this redone as I am suggesting and should I expect the company who did this work to make this right or pay another company to redo it?
Thank you
Cold in Alaska

Steve Whitbeck

Can you post a picture of the piping???
If the boiler has just the one pump then it is way too small.

Mark Hunt

could you post pics?


They would give us a better idea of what you have.

Mark H

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Floyd_5

there are a number of great guys...

that post here regularly from cold Alaska....
maybe if your lucky on of them won't be too far away...
check the "find a pro"

Nick W

I will post them ASAP - maybe 20 minutes. There is the just the one pump for heat delivery but another for the condensate.

Mark Hunt

Post em'!

> I will post them ASAP - maybe 20 minutes. There

> is the just the one pump for heat delivery but

> another for the condensate.





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Mark Hunt

Post em'!


Mark H

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GEO_3

The circulator is to small but you should also look at the venting system. restricted intake or exhaust will reduce the output. if the boiler is getting up to temp and modulating properly then it's probably ok. If you call Heat Transfer Products they will help you out.

Nick W

Pictures of the problem

Here are some pictures othe installation - boiler in garage and zone valves in old boiler room plus the run in between the two.

Bob Bona_4

from

what I can see from the boiler pic, we got problems:)

It looks like the installer piped things like a conventional boiler, and that doesn't apply when you are working with a Munchkin. This is the root of your issues. Without getting too techinical,the near boiler piping is missing something known as a "primary/secondary" arrangement.

Best thing to do is get the installation intructions and compare what HTP wants vs. what the installer did. I think you'll find you are missing a few key components to make the system work right. The instructions HAVE to be followed!

The rest of the pic's are nice, but tell little, except for the fact someone has invested in a Wirsbo expander tool:)

You have a great boiler and water heater combo. Now all you have to do is get it piped right!

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GW

Should look like this

Notive the circulator that operates the boiler only, that is it does not have anything to do with the heating zones.

This cird is a Taco 0010, as you noted it's a bit bigger, AND it dedicated to the boiler only

Gary



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Steve Eayrs

Your system should look like what Garys photo says,

BUT you most likely will not be zoning with pumps, but one (bigger than you have now) pump and zone valves, based on the piping between your house and boiler. I believe you have existing zone valves already, and it would not make a lot of sense to change them to pumps.

Steve

GEO_3

Just for another view. Since there is no radiant heat involved you shouldn't need all those pumps. One properly sized pump and untangle that nest of piping it will work fine and more economical. How are you supposed to get the air out of that anyway. I don't see anyway to purge or balance any part of the system.

Nick W

Thank you for all these messages about the boiler piping problems and the pump. The original installer is willing to upsize our pump but does not seem to know how to do the piping any differently. I will give your suggestions and pictures to them!

Also, does any of this explain why we get a bad smell from our boiler sometimes? It smells like antifreeze to me.

Thank you,
Holly

ScottMP

Holly

Tell your contractor to look at the installation instructions that come with the boiler. Everything you've been told on this site is included in those instructions.

If he still needs help tell him to contact the manufacturer, they will be more than happy to help with the piping design.

Good Luck

Scott

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Guy_5

Munchkin

Some of the great technology that we have today has just made my job easier. I spoke to Holly yesterday and she directed me to the pictures posted here. I can be here south of Boston and look at a job in Alaska, how nice is that.
Thank you all for pointing her in the right direction- the circulator is undersized. Once that is resolved, we can approach the piping issues if necessary, which it may not be. The smell may just be a new equipment smell, possibly the PVC vent.

GEO_3

The Munchkin did have a gasket problem that would give an odor but yours looks new enough to have the correction. You mentioned anti freeze. If you have anti freeze in the system and its at more than 50% mix. you will get the same problem you described. This is not a case of more is better. too much anti freeze will reduce heat transfer.