best zone valves

Kal Row

looking for the best zone valve, that allows, 5gpm,
and balancing, i am looking at the sprcozone, they
happen to make a nice 4 zone assembly, that gets good flow
per port for a baseboard system -
any recommendations, or bad experiences - thanks

bigugh_4

Just a thought ?

Consider useing pumps. one circulation pump and if it fails the best zone valves in the world will not keep heating the house. Pumps are not that much more expensive, and if one fails, the house will still be reduntantly heated. JMHO bigugh

Kal Row

i looked at that option first

but, i already have primary and injection and secondary pumps, the owner did not want to use more elec,
plus the cost of 3way mixing valves on each zone make the plumming much ore complicated.

the only problem with zoneing, is, that one of the zones has a huge load (50kbtu) and needs 40% of the flow, and my supplier also has been waiting to get a hold of a diferential pressure bypass valve to keep the flow ballanced regardless of how many zones are on

Boilerpro_3

Another thought

I understand your concern about excessive electrical usage. When a single 007, 42F, or nrf-22 costs up to $80.00 per year to operate, expecially when using full outdoor reset, electrical usage is an issue. High efficiency boilers aren't much benefit if the system using hugh amounts of very costly and inefficient electricity.

When using zone valves I like to pipe two pumps in parallel with outlet flow checks. This way if one pump fails, you still have back up and still use less electricity. You still get the dramatically improved efficiency of larger pumps and still retain redundancy.

If you need high flow zone valves, the best I've seen is White Rodgers. They have a full port when open so flow resistance is equal to about 6 to 10 feet of pipe in the valve size... about equal to a full port ball valve. They come in 3/4, 1, and 1 1/4 inch. I use them alot when I need high flow rates like 14gpm.

Those are the White Rodger zone valves on the left and the paired pumps with check valves on the right. The 1 1/4 inch valve is for a 5,000 sq ft top floor zone in a very poorly insulated structure. The paired pumps are for 1) twined injection pumps, 2) a single large zone (about 350,000 btu/hr load) and 3) feeding 3 zones in an education sturcture.

Hope this helps

Boilerpro

Kal Row

did you

really make that cool header on the bottom yourself, if so, then you really are the boilerpros

Boilerpro_3

My local welder made it up

to my specs. Learned a few things. First, don't weld couplings to build the manifold. All of them shrunk and he had to tap them by hand to resize them. Also, while it was nice to look at, don't have the header galvanized. This also got into the threads and created havoc.

Live and learn.

Boilerpro

Kal Row

where did you get those

large funky copper fittinsg?
also i see you used inline ballancing valves instead of a differtial pressure bypass - i cant make out the brand, how much are they and how are they working,

also on your large injection you are useing the same size pipe, how are you eliminating ghost flow? - the tekmar engineers insist that it has to be at least 1 pipe size smaller and the hot side has to be 1ft higher

hr

Those aren't couplings!

They look like those thin "thread protectors" they send on T&C pipe Supply houses often try to pass them off as couplings, also.

They don't have any taper cut into them and often times you bottom out a nipple or male adapter trying to get them to tighten. Throw them away and buy real couplings

For your next manifold, have the welder buy weld-o-lets or similar. They are coped to the pipe diameter, chamfered for the weld bead, and much beefier for welding, without distortion.

Are you concerned about the galv to copper connection? Could be an electroylsis problem.

Lots of nice piping on that job.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kal Row

yeah..really nice

solder connections especialy on the large fittings -
love to know his technique - i never get it
this good - didnt overheat any of them either -
love to know his secret - it's more than just
experiance - it usually is lots of things -
the correct tip size on the torch, the right type and
amnt of flux, solder, smooth steady movements etc
i wish someone with a good system would post a mpeg of it

bob young

weldolets

very good looking header. next time consider threadolets instead of standard pipe couplings --they are specifically designed for welding applications and are contoured to fit around pipe wall. the welder will love you. what size is the header?

hr

Another source for headers

Try Lee at www.earthlee.com She will build whatever you can dream up. This is a large manifold I had her build for a mini tube injection system.

Top notch welders and reasonable prices. Check out their ad in the "manufactures" section to the left.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kal Row

what is that

is that a motorized modulator on the right header,
who makes it?

hr

On the top rung

from left to right A flow setter with window to adjust the injection rate, then a ball valve for the mini-tube return, the large ball valve is a Jomar filter ball valve with intergral strainer, space, then a Grundfos 26-99 circulator for the radiant floor loops.

Two 1" copper mini-tube lines, running 160 feet, supply 371,000 BTU/hr to this manifold!

In retrospect I would have had Lee build this whole assembly with weld fittings. I didn't have enough dimension info when I ordered the headers

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kal Row

cew-el

and thanks for telling us about lee
ps: for ref, apx how much does she get for thos headers?

Boilerpro_3

Misc answers

Copper fittings came from my regular copper supplier, Plainwell Brass in Sterling,IL... NO DWV fittings! like I've seen used by other shops. I believe they are Nibco and some other makes.

Those balancing valves are for the two return mains from the single 350,000 btu/hr zone. They are B&G units. The zones that share the pumps have end switches and the pumps are pretty flat curve, by todays standards, so flow noise is not an issue They are B&G Nrf-33's, I think, with a max head of about 12 feet.

The injection pumps have swing checks, another no-no according to tekmar official line, but most of the good contractors here have found them useful to help eliminate ghost flows and not cause problems. I started using them about a year ago and have had good luck. The boiler main is the 3 inch main above while the system manifold is about 4 feet below, prviding more than enough drop. The injection pumps are providing boiler low temp protection for the 3 staged Burnham 807's. One is variable speed powered directly off a tekmar 361, the other is turned on when the return to the boilers hits about 160F. Full outdoor reset is accomplished by the tekmar 254 staging control with feedback from zone controls.


Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I agree

I let the welder do it himself and choose his own materials, as he usually overbuilds just a little!, but alas lessons were learned (he's been welding longer than I've been alive). All I can say is I hope we don't see problems with the galvanizing. And yes next time definitely weld-o-lets.

Thanks for the compliments on the piping. It means alot coming from one of the true masters!

BP

Boilerpro_3

Patience,dancing, and a very large Propane torch

I used to use acetylene on this big stuff, and tended to have the problems you spoke of. I found out from a good plumber that the really big propane tip from Goss works great on this big stuff. The propane burns much cooler with a much bigger flame and the flames wraps right around the fittings just like the small stuff. I still work my way around the fittings and occasionally have a fitting get too hot so the solder runs out the top, but its much better now and propane is much cheaper. I use No Corrode flux and Bridget solder.

BP

Boilerpro_3

I may look into them for the next one I need

I like going local, but it hard to beat a shop that is set up for this kind of work regularly.

Boilerpro

Kal Row

thanks, i knew there was a secret

Mark Wolff

Set-ups

NoKorode and NoKorode Cold weather flux are the best, I agree. I use SilvaBright solder. Bridgit solder works ok, but once I tried silvabright I don't ever want to go back. You might try it. Also, TurboTorch makes a really good LP torch system and their big heads are great. I've gotten to where I'll use the 5/8" tip on 1/2" M copper with no problems. Soldering just goes so much quicker that way. By the way, nice job on that piping system.

Boilerpro_3

Thanks! and bigger tips

I believe Goss has tips that are 3/4 or 1 inch, you may want to take a look

Boilerpro

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Mixed black, galvanized & copper

A while back I had to relocate the 3" mains in my garage to allow modern overhead garage doors. Also had to relocate all the branch lines in the garage up into joist spaces.

Looked so good that I essentially repiped everything to put all possible branch lines into joist cavities and put the few exposed risers into wall cavities.

One TRV in the house had clogged at one point. Never understood why but it was in the middle of heat season. Fortunately all I had to do was operate the actuator back and forth a bunch of times to clear.

While relocating the branch lines found two 1" galvanized pipes had been used at some point--I gather for a previous relocation around a shower--probably in the 1970s. Those two galvanized pipes served the TRV that had clogged. They were so scaled that the interior size was reduced smaller than a pencil! All the rest of the piping is from about 1922. Only slight surface scaling inside.

I have no idea what caused this but it has lead me to believe that galvanized pipe has no place in a hydronic system. City water, quite alkaline (ph around 8.3), very hard and highly chlorinated.

Near boiler piping was in copper until I repiped in black iron. No di-electrics and the copper/black iron joints seemed OK after about 25 years.

Domestic water system was a cluster of galvanized and copper--again no di-electrics. The copper/galvanized joints seemed to be all right but I really didn't look too closely as it was being removed. The galvanized lines however (despite being significantly older) were nowhere near as scaled as those two galvanized pipes in the hydronic system.

Wish I had a better understanding of water chemistry, but something bad was going on in those galvanized pipes in the hydronic system. They didn't appear to be corroding--cut them in a couple places and pipe wall was quite solid--but the build-up of scale was absolutely fantastic and seemingly GREATLY accelerated.

Steve Eayrs

pumps verses zone valve questions.


Not sure if I agree with the logic of using pumps instead of zone valves. If you are zoning with pumps and a pump goes out, you still don't have heat in that zone.


If you are doing primary/secondary, you usually still only have one pump for the whole system, on the boiler side.


In the emergency situation, and a zone valve goes out, you can manually open the zone valves and still have heat.


If the main pump goes out, on the zone valve system,you can still usually count on some convection thru the pipes.


It also takes less time to replace most zone valves, since you don't have to drain the system down.


The power consumption issue, si also a real issue, and makes a bigger difference in some areas than others. We pay twice for electrical in our area, than some of you, so I know that is also another reason we almost alwasy use zone valves.

Of course there are times we will split things up and use pumps for flow reasons, but even then most of the zoning will be zone valves.


Steve

Kal Row

right you are..

and attached is a system diag pdf
with a complete set of bypass valves
complete with a spreadsheet depicting
Normaly Open and Normaly Closed valves
setting and bypass modes
even the electronics have bypass modes
and the job will contain a spare thermocouple
and igition module -
this job should have been done a month ago - am still waiting on some of the parts - like the danfoss bypass valve and beleive it or not the slant-fin - i am thinking of switching to a weil-mclane Cga-5

Kal Row

at the end of the day...

no one checked in with their most and least
favorite zone valves, and why, - com'on people,
wet-heads are highly opinionated, - even when they
are wrong, so lets have some input!!!!

Troy_3

Zone valves

The best- IMHO are Automag. Great valve. very reliable. Great little company. Never a problem. I have used hundreds. Customers like the indicator lights. I like the fact that they fail open. Give them a try.

Boilerpro_3

Sorry about the derail....

High flow I use White Rodgers, however, I have been seeing alot of defective valves right out of the box. Had good luck with Erie (Invensys) too. Have better flow rates than many, especially in 1 and 1/1/4 inch and available in normally open...probably last alot longer in outdoor reset systems and for freeze protection in case of failure.

Boilerpro

Kal Row

i am also looking

looking for preferences in a multi-valve config like the SPARCOZONE, i haven't seen any other multi-zone assembly with flow rates sufficient for fin-coil baseboard - are there any out there? - at 180 supply and 160 return i would need 5gpm for a 50Kbtu ibr load - the sparcozone 4 port handles up to 10gpm per port, i cant believe they have the market cornered - gas prices in nyc literally doubled this winter - thank god it's mild so far, but we will be getting lots of upgrade jobs where the existing baseboard is kept, just the boiler and near piping is replaced, so we need to be ready with the best stuff - i tried to light a fire under the danfoss people at ISH show - but it's slow going

fyi AUTOMAG recomended by Troy (radiant@adelphia.net)
they make a valve avail in a slimline version especially designed to be piped inline with a baseboard

i am so tired of looking for this stuff, shouldn't they should be running after us? - i am toying with the idea of opening a high-tech hydronics supply house

check these links out http://www.honeywellwatercontrols.com/sparcosdis/Zone_Valves/SparcoZone2_SDIS590-2_12_2002.pdf

http://www.controlsdepot.com/images/Automag_catalog.pdf

Steve Ebels

I still like

Taco 571's. Yes I know they don't flow as easy as some and you can't use as many off a 40 VA transformer. The thing is, I have NEVER had to replace one yet on all the jobs I have used them on. They are also silent. Something which can't be said for a lot of valves. Also available in 1" size.

hr

I like Erie

pop tops.

I'll tell you my first go around with Automags nearly drove me crazy. You have to think completely backwards.

Now does the t stat open or close the valve? If I disconnect the wires is the valve open or closed? Is this a special t stat? Now did I connect those t stat leads, and does that mean the valve is motored open but the flow is stopped? Or does the valve have to be closed for the flow to start. Am I hallucinating?

I suppose once you get used to them this phobia subsides

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kal Row

but it

makes priorty zone wiring more logical

BillW@honeywell

My vote would go to...

(obviously)Honeywell (Sparco) or the Honeywell VC series valves, both smooth acting, quiet and versatile. Check them out at http://hbctechlit.honeywell.com.

mark.heath@mhudson.net

what is the SparcoZone advantage?

according to the below link, the SparcoZone's are more expensive than buying individual valves/actuators. Aside from labor saving/convenience, is there any advantage?


http://www.plumbingworld.com/zonevalves.html

Kal Row

i noticed

the price too, but it makes for a compact and neater job
and i am hoping that my suplier if he ever
gets it, to me will have a better price

hr

A bit of a learning curve

when you screw those actuator heads to that manifold. Often those funky alignment dots are not pasted on properly.

If you screw the head down to far it will hold the valve open, always. they need to be tightened to the exact right spot, takes some getting used to.

The other funky deal is those actuator heads actually turn a bit when they open and close! It's weird at first. You get them all lined up nicely, turn your back then they rotate out of alignnment.

The wire they use is about the size of a human hair, becareful when you strip it. Go too far and the wire breaks off in the wire nut! I much prefer the stranded wire, or terminals to connect to.

Just my 10 cents. It is a nice manifold, actually!


hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kal Row

thanks for the input,

and i will be tie-wrapping a screw terminal strip right to the header, since i am not getting the r8889 panel that snaps onto it

the turning part had me stumped though, the actuator is linear how does it make the body turn?