My gasbill is killing me !

Frank Weigert

I bought this rather large fixer-upper last year (3700 sqft) and after dumping all my money in the initial renovation, now the gas company is trying to give me the rest :-)
I received a $700 gas bill for December and now I know that it is time to focus on my heating system again. I initially received some very good advice from this great site and he best one surely was to buy "The Lost Art". After reading it I am kind of hooked on Steam heating now. My main goal is to get an idea which modifications would help to lower the gas bills. I am very technical and can handle quite a bit myself, but I am also technical enough to now when it is better to hire a pro. My main problem is that my trust in some of the local contractors here in Philly is somehow disturbed. The last "steam specialist" that my neighbor highly recommended said that it is better not to re-insulate the steam mains since then they will work as a radiant floor heat. I am simply trying to understand my system as much as possible, that way I can spend my money intelligently. I sat down after tracing all my pipes (and believe me, I had enough walls open in this house to know where and how they run) and made a little drawing, I know you guys like pictures.

My system originally was an ADSCO two pipe Vapor system (Orifice valves, no traps). At this point however, other than the radiators, there is not much of the original system left. The boiler is a Crown Jamaica JBF-92 (299000 BTU), other than the old pipe that connected the ADSCO into the chimney flue; there are no traces of the old system in the boiler room. Most of the Steam and Dry Return main have been replaced, the remaining original pipes indicate that the pipe size is the same as the originals (2" for the steam main, 1" for the Dry Return). The contractor that did most of the replacements prior to me buying the house assured that he re-piped everything the way he found it. The connected Radiation load is approx. 630 sqft EDR.

Here is the story:
When I bought the place there was excessive water hammer in the back of the house close to the end of the main. All the radiators in the house got nice and hot though. The first thing that caught my attention was that the steam main was piped straight back into the dry return without a trap, especially since this was in the area with the most water hammer and 2 risers and 2 first floor radiators (and their returns) connected less than 3feet away from this connection. Following good advice from this site I installed a loopseal and cranked down the pressure from 2 pounds to .5 pounds. This immediately reduced the water hammer and stopped the air vent at the end of the dry return from spitting. However now 2 of the third floor radiators on these risers won’t get hot anymore. Somebody installed air vents on these radiators, these vents were blowing air before the loopseal was installed, afterwards they were dead which makes me believe that these radiators where probably heated through the returns which now are behind the seal (I removed the vents by now since they shouldn’t be there anyway). When I go into the 3rd floor I can hear that there is quite some water in these two risers, the steam probably can’t make it through.
Here we come to the next problem the steam supply hits my main with a horizontal tee in the middle of my house one half of the main going back to the boiler room is pitched down the other half going to the left side of the house is pitched up which effectively makes this side a counterflow system. There are no drip lines between the main and the dry return, quite honestly with the dry return in most areas being slightly higher than and only 2 or three inches away from the steam main it would be kind of hard to install them.
As if these would not be enough problems the current boiler (8 years old) must have been installed by the “Masters of steam”. As you can see on the drawing, the riser goes straight up into the take-off, the header/equalizer is connected via a tee, I have no idea how any startup condensate is supposed to make it back into the boiler. There is no drain valve for the system and no gate valve to disconnect the system from the boiler. On top of that the installer reduced the tappings from 2.5 to 2 inch so that he can use the cheap Home-depot copper. As a result I get a lot of wet steam, a recipe for water hammer. If I reset the boiler to the normal water line in the morning before it comes on for the first time I will have very little water hammer during the first startup, however the feeder will start to add water 2 minutes after the boiler starts to produce steam. The boiler will be flooded by the end of the day and put me right into water hammer heaven. I currently blow off 1 to 2 gallons every night. This got worse after installed the loop seal, seems like the steam pressure in the dry return helped to blow some of the condensate back to the boiler a bit faster.

Here is what I know I have to do:

Re-Insulate the mains, Install a Vaporstat (I ordered one last week)and get the boiler piping straightened out by a pro

I was wondering if I should try to install drip lines with a Hoffman 17c from the back risers (in the water hammer zone) since the risers start higher than the dry return.

I know that an F&T trap would be better than a loop seal at the end of the main; however the water hammer would probably destroy it. There currently is an air vent at the end of the steam main which shouldn’t be there either, I replaced it after I bought the house, however it never blows air and by now is most likely killed by all the water hammer. Also I am not sure if an F&T Trap would not be a waste of money since the main is pitched up.

I have the suspicion that the boiler piping will have the most effect on my gas bill; however it also is the most intrusive during the heating season. And I assume that the boiler would have to be skimmed afterwards also.

Does it make any sense to install the vaporstat before the boiler is re-piped or might the way lower pressure make things even worse in the current condition?

I know this is an extremely long post, but any food for thought would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Deleted User]

really nice drawings, how'd you do that..

yes, install the vaporstat...get that near boiler piping straightened out..you mentioned a pipe from the return into the chimney, sounds like an original air vent..does it get hot? if so your blowing steam into the returns..and also losing steeam(water) up the chimney..bad for fuel bills and boiler..philly isn't that far from baltimore is it? maybe steamheads up for a road trip...how deep did you make that loop seal?

steve_6

you need a pro

Go to the find a professional section on this web site

flange

just doing some quick math, my manual tells me that one edr equals 240 btu/hour @215 degrees heating medium. so 240 x630 equals about 151,200 btu/hour. that tells me that your crown boiler is pretty oversized. i dont have the info in front of me on the crown, but is that able to be derated ? that thing being oversized is costing you plenty. i take care of a large home in the philly area, also steam with a boiler three times the size of yours that is using less fuel. when you had your walls opened, did you insulate? this would also drop your load, which makes that boiler even more inefficient. vaporstat should help some, but id first have a load calc done to check that boiler size, it seems pretty large to me.

scrook_2

I=B=R rating

of that boiler is 184,000 BTU/hr (81.5% AFUE & 1.33 pickup) per Crown's site, so his connected load of about 151,200 makes it only 20% oversized. Granted a Crown JBF-82 (262,500/161,000 BTU/hr) might have been better, but he's in the ballpark. The boiler needs to be sized for the connected radiation, not the heat loss of the structure since it is steam, adding insulation to the structure can only help.

At a minimum, I'd insulate at least the supply mains w/ 1" fiberglass and get rid of the copper (downsized no less!) so the steam's dry.

flange

only twenty percent oversized? thats nice. while it is necessary to realize the connected load, it is definitely costing dear customers money by "only oversizing" by twenty percent. this boiler is too big, that is a fact. if the customer actually installed insulation in his walls while they were open, a boiler that is sized exactly to the connected load will still operate as oversized. EDR is the amount of heating surface that will produce about 240 btu/hour. so, if you insulate your walls, you effectively reduce the load in the structure. by reducing the load, you now have oversized rads. this causes the space to heat up more quickly than before. this causes the boiler to short cycle which in turn costs the customer money due to inefficient firing. i personnally would rather see the boiler just slightly undersized from the edr than "only twenty percent" oversized. by the way thats just my two cents.

Frank Weigert

Gerry,
I made the drawings with VISIO. I use an older version, the product is now owned by Microsoft and I would not be suprised if by now there would be symbols for plumbing and heating available.
The old vent pipe into the chimney is disconnected. The loopseal is 2 feet deep, I did not go all the way below the waterline since it is not dripped.
Steamhead has offered me help before, for the case I should not find local help. As soon as I have some of my Christmas bills paid :-) I will start to contact some people.

Frank Weigert

John,
I forgot one readiator in my basement that is currentlky turned off, howver once it get's real cold outside all the waterpipes down there might want some heat. This brings the total connected radiation load to 642 sqft EDR. I also now of at least two removed radiators, their pipes are still there.
If I use Dan's "safer approach to Replacement Boiler Sizing" in "The Lost Art" (page 75) I would use
642 X 1.5 X 240 = 231,120
My boiler is rated at 245 MBH D.O.E Heating Capacity, the next smaller one (JBF 82) is only 214.

I currently only have some of my outside walls insulated after carrying 12 tons of debris out to the street (at least 8 of that by myself) I got tired of ripping down plaster walls :-)
I do have all new windows in the first 2 floors and I definetely would have expected to see some relief in my fuel bills for that.
What do you think are my best options, I think replacing the boiler would take several years to justify the savings on my gas bill.
Also, where are you located ?

[Deleted User]

the depth of the loop

seal would indicate maximum operating pressure. 1 3/4'' for each ounce of pressure..24'' loop seal means a maximum pressure of 13 ounces...but thats fine..your vaporstat when it arrives will do this nicely..set it for about 8 ounces for staters and play with the seting..when i say play with it, you may only need 4 ounces...dought you would have to go higher..keep us posted..i'd love to know how it all works out.

Frank Weigert

I will send an update once it is installed. I am still kind of curious what to do with the condensate since due to the opposite pitch of the main in that area the loop only operates as a buffer for any condensate that gets smashed towards the end by the steam while the boiler is firing. Once the boiler shut's off it has to run back a good 90 feed to the drip line at the other end of the main. i don't see any place where I would have enough space and height difference to drip the main into the dry return, the only thing that I could think of is to drip the two risers at this end of the main into the dry return. I would think that that should get rid of a good portion of the condensate that would otherwise drain back through the main and then get hammered back to the end once the boiler fires back up.

[Deleted User]

ohh, i didn't see that on your drawing till just now,

when your post made me look for it..you have a counterflow main..theoretically there would be no flow of water to fill the loop seal..it shouldn't be there then..should be a crossover steam trap which would also be your air vent, or the counterflow main can just end after the air vent, and your return would be a seperate pipe altogether.

Frank Weigert

I agree that the trap would be the better choice, however I figured that with all the waterhammer I currently have in this area it probably would not last too long. So you think just the vent and a plug at the end would be sufficient ?

Boilerpro_3

Open walls = Big gas bills!

Not sure waht type of construction you have, and it does look like your systems needs some work, however, those open walls will eat you alive. Heat loads under those conditions can be anywhere from 3 to 6 times normal. Get those walls at least insulated to slow convective heat lost and closed up as soon as possible to reduce air leakage.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

Open walls = Big gas bills!

Not sure waht type of construction you have, and it does look like your systems needs some work, however, those open walls will eat you alive. Heat loads under those conditions can be anywhere from 3 to 6 times normal. Get those walls at least insulated to slow convective heat lost and closed up as soon as possible to reduce air leakage.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

Open walls = Big gas bills!

Not sure waht type of construction you have, and it does look like your systems needs some work, however, those open walls will eat you alive. Heat loads under those conditions can be anywhere from 3 to 6 times normal. Get those walls at least insulated to slow convective heat lost and closed up as soon as possible to reduce air leakage.

Boilerpro

[Deleted User]

if its truly a counterflow

main, it would just end..cause there is no need for a drop to a return cause all the condensate runs away from it..since you have the air vent there, i would just disconnect the loop and cap the pipe ends..that may just end your hammer problems also..maybe..

[Deleted User]

also Frank,

when you repipe the boiler, repipe the steam supply into the top of the main, not into its side..you probably already know this, but i figured i'd throw it out there cause i was just re-reading your first posting.

Mark Hunt

Exactly


Put a heavier "coat" on the house and lower the amount of BTU's escaping.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Frank Weigert

Currently there is a (totally original, meaning not copper and asbestos insulated :-))horizontal pipe going through the wall from the boiler room all the way through my garage then hitting the main from above in a 45 degree angle. There will only be the pipes for the riser, header, equalizer and a couple of feet for the takeoff required to connect the boiler to that pipe.

Frank Weigert

Sorry, I might have worded that wrong. My house is brick construction and all walls that were opened are insulated and closed. However there are several outside walls that are not insulated since i never removed the plaster, meaning they are in original condition with plaster but no insulation behind it. There are only furing strips between the brick and the plaster walls, not enough room to use blow in insulation.

[Deleted User]

install a drop header

and use both boiler takeoffs and a good sized equalizer and you should then get really dry steam..youve got your work cut out for you, but it sounds like you got a handle on whats needed..thats good.

Frank Weigert

Thanks Gerry,
I would love to use two risers to the header, however the space in my boiler room limits me a little bit. If I use that second steam tapping my wife might burn her arm on the equalizer when she puts the laundry in the wash machine, that wouldn't come over to well. Besides I would also have to move the gas pipe. Crowns Installation manual states that he boiler can be piped with either one or two risers.
I will probably relocate the boiler once it is time to replace it.

Frank Weigert

I looked at some picture of drop headers since they I wasn't to familiar with them and I think this can be done with 2 risers and the existing space.

Question: With a drop header, assuming there is enough headroom, do you still try to maintain the minimum 24" between the normal waterline and the bottom of the header, or should you use the bottom of the risers ?

scrook_2

perhaps you could

move (have moved) the gas pipe and use fiberglass insulation on the equalizer, including its fittings, depending on space available by the laundry?

[Deleted User]

24'' for riser height.

then you can drop back lower again. like this

Frank Weigert

Nice !!!
Thanks for all your help.
I will update the thread with the results of any changes.

GEO_3

Gas fired steam is usually a dog. and the primary reasonfor that is the boiler is allmost allways oversized