New 4 x 300,000 btu lp steam boiler not working properly

Emil

New 4 x 300,000 btu lp steam boiler not working properly

We have a non-profit building called "The Ukrainian Home Dnipro" in Buffalo, NY that was built in 1914.
It is a massive brick buiilding with about 30,000 sq. feet spread over 3 floors.
About 3 years ago we replaced the old 2,000,000 btu low pressure steam boiler with 4 modular boilers :
300,000 btu each; Slant Fin GXHT-1200.
Because over the years we have eliminated about 1/4 of the heating requirements : heating some rooms with baseboard hot water,
hot air or left unheated.

Now, we have these problems with our new steam system :
Building is slow to heat up.
Some radiators are completely cold.
Gas bills are still astronomical, even though we use the building less than in the old days.

Some questions have been raised regarding :
Pressuretrol set at 8 psi.
Near boiler piping may be bull-headed.
Vents not properly cleaned or maintained

The attached digital photographs show some of our system.

Sincerely,
Emil Bandriwsky
Treasurer of The Ukrainian Home Dnipro.
tel (716) 847-1281
fax (716) 852-7652
email : ukraine.art@verizon.net

[Deleted User]

well, for starters

lower your pressuretrol cut in to 1/2 or 1 pound, your not the empire state building, maybe your air vents cant open against your current pressure.

teds in hot water

Steam problems

Your pressure is out of line. At low pressure steam 1 PSI cut in and 2.5 cut out, and 5 PSI being the limit on the secondary pressuretrol as a safety precaution. If no success with that it all comes back to the piping at the boilers, and the condition of the existing vents and traps now that 8 pounds of pressure has pushed years of garbage in the lines into the traps and vents.

Mad Dog

Can't tell dark pictures...but what size is the steam headers

that were installed? can you get some close ups? Alos, as the other guys said: Crank that pressure way down and make sure your vent are working if they are evne there. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Boilerpro_3

In addition to the above and.... 2 pipe air vent system?

Boiler water looks awfully dirty. Dirty water makes it very difficult for a boiler to make dry steam efficiently. It looks like the individual boilers are piped well, but its hard to tell for sure. You may have a two pipe air vent system. If each radiator has two pipes going to it, probably one will be one size larger than the other, with an air vent on each rad, this is probably what you have. Definitely crank down the pressure....1/2 psi cut in 1.5 to 2 psi cutout typically is what is needed.

Boilerpro

Unknown

Never mind the pressure;

There isn't an equalizer beyond the steam take-offs. Those boilers will fail from blasting all of the water in the header up the mains, to be replaced instantly with cold return water.

Over and over and over.

Give Slant/Fin a call about this, if you like, at 800 873 4346

Noel

Boilerpro_3

Noel,

> There isn't an equalizer beyond the steam

> take-offs. Those boilers will fail from blasting

> all of the water in the header up the mains, to

> be replaced instantly with cold return

> water.

>

> Over and over and over.

>

> Give

> Slant/Fin a call about this, if you like, at 800

> 873 4346

>

> Noel

Boilerpro_3

Noel,

It looks like each boiler has its own Hartford loop and equalizer (ala. Dan Holahan), so hopefully not much water is getting to the steam main. A nice big drip on the beginning of the main would be nice though, to clean up the steam one more time.

Boilerpro

Unknown

We spent a lot of time with pressure gauges on these.

If you are going to pipe them different than the installation instructions, then you would need to pipe them completely individually, with check valves, spill traps, and individual pump controls.

These are going to have differences in pressure in the lines (which aren't only in the wrong places, they are the wrong size). There will be water level problems.

I know of at least two different ways to make these work. The factory instructions are the least expensive and the easiest to do.

They really should have a solid base under them, so that the air that is drawn in by the chimney comes in through the cabinet and through the burners, instead of from under the burners.

Are they all on the same level?

Noel

Steamhead

You need a Steam Man there

That system needs some serious help. Call Noel at the number he gave, he's one of the best and can help you straighten out the boiler setup.

8 PSI is way too high for this system. Your system can run on ounces rather than pounds. This is one reason you're burning so much gas- pressure costs money.

The steam mains have to be well vented so all radiators will have steam available at about the same time. Also, the waterline of the new boilers is much lower than that of the old one. This can allow steam to get into pipes that used to be under water. A False Water Line setup will cure this.

This system can work very well if properly set up.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

[Deleted User]

gas pressure?

I can't help but notice the location of the gas meter.Does this supply all of those units?If so it doesn't look large enough.I would check the gas pressure,pipe sizing,meter size,gas load.
Mike

greg_7

The header is 6\"

Noel, Steamhead: This is the mess I posted about two weeks ago.

Unknown

I thought so

Our Sales department is/has been attempting to get a look at this job.

The bulk of the problem is this;

On the modular boiler design, the risers and header need to be sized for absolute minimal pressure drop. The risers all need to be increased right off the boiler, and all must be the same lengths.

The steam takeoffs and equalizer and return connection are the next "pressure zone" in the common piping. This is the place that pressure changes are supposed to occur.

The third "pressure zone" is the return manifold. It, too, must be sized so that the entire return manifold has minimal pressure drop across it's length.

With ALL of the supplies at the same pressure, and ALL of the returns at the same pressure, the water lines will be stable. It doesn't matter which boilers are off and which are running.

This was tested pretty extensively at the factory, and the boilers are STILL running, years later. The smallest manifolds and pipe sizes that work are printed in our manual for the Caravan set-up. We like it when you have the information that you need to build a working system.

Of course, if you want to pipe it different, follow rules for Multiple boilers, rather than Modular boilers. You'll need two LWCOs on each boiler, a pump control for each boiler, spill traps and check valves on each boiler, and a control system for all of it. That's acceptable to code authorities, too.

These boilers aren't piped modular, and aren't protected as multiples. I don't know which code was followed to install these.

Again, please call if I can help with anything.

Noel

800 873 4346

greg_7

There are also indirect rads in ducts

that aren't working well or are cut off.