CO not the only killer

John R. Hall

Don't know if there was a working smoke detector, but this is a tragedy regardless. This is one of the reasons my family puts up an artifical tree now. A senseless and preventable tragedy.

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=D7VLV2800_story

Mad Dog

Yes, John and this is why I installed a fire sprink

system in my house - the walls were open and why not! You wouldn't believe all the people - most in our trade that said: "why? your nuts!." I know I'll never regret it. Mad Dog

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John R. Hall

There are always positives to negatives

The worst sometimes brings out the best:

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/7572707.htm

Mark Eatherton1

FACT....

there has not been one fire related death in a building eqipped with fire protection systems. (excluding 9/11 twin towers incident).

Those are tough numbers to argue with.

It is technically feasible to incorporate life protection systems with hydronic heating system in both residential settings as well as commercial.

I'm hoping its just a matter of time before it becomes mandatory.

ME

Mark Wolff

Fire Protection

In case you didn't know, Wirsbo makes a fire rated pex system, piped with regular aquapex that has wall or ceiling sprinklers. If you send them a copy of your house plans THEY will design and sign off on the fire protection plan showing exactly where to put each head. Their plans are fully approved by fire marshalls in all 50 states.

You can install it at the same time as your water piping, with the same tubing, and not only do you get the benefit of a safer, sprinkled house, you also get....

HOMEOWNER INSURANCE RATE REDUCTIONS!!!!!!!

Insurance companies love seeing sprinklers, because they know the claims are fewer and cost less. Your rates will go down.

I know there are other systems for sprinkling out there, we just install a lot of Wirsbo Aquapex and HePex, and it caught my eye. No special training required.

Mad Dog

Know all about it Wolfman.....and I plan to use it

on a future project...but in my house(1896 Victorian) its all old school: Cast Iron DWV, copper domestic, steam/vapor system from scratch with antique rads. and copper fire sprinkler system. The only piece of PVC I have in the house is one 3/4" fitting on the central ac drip pan, which then goes right to copper waste. I did use pex for the areas that I do have radiant, basement, and bathrooms. The Wirsbo system is excellent in design though and I can't wait to do it in someone's else's house. Mad Dog

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allenh

wirsbo & spronklers

any idea how that would do in a top floor above the ceiling in an unisulated space? It can drop down to zero degrees minus the wind chill here in New England. Or is it a dry system?

I have friends who have installed sprinklers in rental properties. The ins prices have gone UP as tenants sometimes break the heads to damage that units...

Here in Massachusetts its up to the fire dept for local comuunities BUT if one is doing more than 50 % renovation they can force entire building to be up to code. On a 3 fam or larger they can push sprinklers.

I can tell you from doing property management that about 1 in 4 smoke detectors are unplugged in rental units. MORE in single fam owner occupied units.

TIA,

Allen

Mark Eatherton1

Freeze protection

is generally done with insulation. The Wirsbo system is wet charged. It's actually an extension of the domestic cold water system, and everything is sized based on that.

In the ceiling bay that the line covers, you would heap extra insulation on top of it to provide freeze protection. A pretty common practice among sprinkler fitters. It's actually spelled out in many code books adn installation manuals.

ME

John R. Hall

Story idea

I smell another story idea here. What kind of training is available for installing residential sprinkler systems and could this be a profit center for heating and cooling contractors? Or should fire protection be limited to people who make it their full-time profession?

Mark Hunt

Horrible tragedy


But most fire victims die from CO poisoning.

Mark H

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allenh

In terms of residential houses some have finished attics. Its plaster, sheet rock then insulation and 3/4 plywood. Wouldn't anything buried in that insulation get down to beneath freezing as the only source of heat is what has leaked through from the apt.?

We had a burst line last year in a very nice 3 decker. People were away for the long 4th July weekend. Water ran for between 2 and 4 days. Ins claim was 21 k for building. Both tenants combined were around 40 to 50 k - lucky they were smart and had apt insurance. We lost hardwood floors and ceilings in second and first floor. It was unneeded work. So I know that we are cautious of any lines in outside walls or attics. If water expands 4 percent at freezing how does pex react to that? And if it were frozen it wouldn't work anyway.

allenh

In terms of residential houses some have finished attics. I mean vaulted ceilings following the roof line. Its plaster, sheet rock then insulation and 3/4 plywood. Wouldn't anything buried in that insulation get down to beneath freezing as the only source of heat is what has leaked through from the apt.? I am in New England and have to consider wind chill too.

We had a burst clothes washer line last year in a very nice 3 decker. People were away for the long 4th July weekend. Water ran for between 2 and 4 days. Ins claim was 21 k for building. Both tenants combined were around 40 to 50 k - lucky they were smart and had apt insurance. We lost hardwood floors and ceilings in second and first floor. It was unneeded work. So I know that we are cautious of any lines in outside walls or attics. If water expands 4 percent at freezing how does pex react to that? And if it were frozen it wouldn't work anyway. We now use intellevalves on washing machines if they are not in cellars.

allenh

In terms of residential houses some have finished attics. I mean vaulted ceilings following the roof line. Its plaster, sheet rock then insulation and 3/4 plywood. Wouldn't anything buried in that insulation get down to beneath freezing as the only source of heat is what has leaked through from the apt.? I am in New England and have to consider wind chill too. We are ready for a rough electrical inspection on a tricked out attic loft. Rough plumbing has been signed off. So we are close to calling the rocker and plasterer. I would consider this before the walls are closed BUT there is no way that I want to risk doing it if something has even a slight chance of freezing. Being a rental its scarey enough to have heads that a tenant can snap off if they want to create code violations.

We had a burst clothes washer line last year in a very nice 3 decker. People were away for the long 4th July weekend. Water ran for between 2 and 4 days. Ins claim was 21 k for building. Both tenants combined were around 40 to 50 k - lucky they were smart and had apt insurance. We lost hardwood floors and ceilings in second and first floor. It was unneeded work. So I know that we are cautious of any lines in outside walls or attics. If water expands 4 percent at freezing how does pex react to that? And if it were frozen it wouldn't work anyway. We now use intellevalves on washing machines if they are not in cellars.

allenh

In terms of residential houses some have finished attics. I mean vaulted ceilings following the roof line. Its plaster, sheet rock then insulation and 3/4 plywood. Wouldn't anything buried in that insulation get down to beneath freezing as the only source of heat is what has leaked through from the apt.? I am in New England and have to consider wind chill too. We are ready for a rough electrical inspection on a tricked out attic loft. Rough plumbing has been signed off. So we are close to calling the rocker and plasterer. I would consider this before the walls are closed BUT there is no way that I want to risk doing it if something has even a slight chance of freezing. Being a rental its scarey enough to have heads that a tenant can snap off if they want to create code violations.

We had a burst clothes washer line last year in a very nice 3 decker. People were away for the long 4th July weekend. Water ran for between 2 and 4 days. Ins claim was 21 k for building. Both tenants combined were around 40 to 50 k - lucky they were smart and had apt insurance. We lost hardwood floors and ceilings in second and first floor. It was unneeded work. So I know that we are cautious of any lines in outside walls or attics. If water expands 4 percent at freezing how does pex react to that? And if it were frozen it wouldn't work anyway. Are the heads activated each by heat or is it a change in pressure and everything trips? We now use intellevalves on washing machines if they are not in cellars.

Mark Eatherton1

If you ask the fire protection contractors...

it's a highly sophisticated, highly guarded trade.

If you ask me, it's good hydraulics engineering backed up by professionalism. Just like with hydronics, just because you know how to put different piping systems together, you are not necessairly an expert.

Fortunatley for them, each system has to be individually engineered and stamped. Wish we had that requirement for our systems!

They absolutely do save lives and structures.

John, I'd recommend you get a hold of someone at Wirsbo, like Ingrid Mattson to give you the skinny. They've done their homework.

I purchased Marc Bromans book on sprinkler design, and can tell you there is more to it than meets the eye. One funny thing, even though we're both dealing with water, flow, gravity and friction their piping drawing symbols are nothing like our symbols used for hydronics.

As for it being a profit center, you'd need specificaly trained crews to be able to do any justice. The FP contractors I've gone up against in the past were doing their systems for a lot less than I'd do it for...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

It's not like on TV....

you know, where the guy takes a lighter and sets off ALL the sprinkler heads... Only those heads that are above a certain temperature actually goes off.

Here's another alternative to water damage potential in houses. http://www.safehomeproducts.com/SHP/SM/Water_cop.asp

You would not be allowed to apply this to the fire protection system though for obvious reasons.

The insurance institute did a study a long time ago that showed that the water damage associated with FPS was negligble in comparison to the lives and property saved.

If you hold your branch lines as close to the sheetroc side as you can, and insulate the living crap out of the lines while holding them to the house side of the envelope, I think you've done as good as you can. If you're really worried about it, there are electric trace systems available for use with plastic tubings.

You can't cover 100% of the potential applications, just 95%...

There are also code approved means of covering large vaulted areas using wall mounted sprinkler heads.

The MOST interesting thing about the FP Industry, is that it doesn't have ANYTHING out there like The Wall. If it's out there, it's a BIG secret. 'cause I've been looking for 2 + years now.

ME

Earthfire

Aquasafe Sprinklers

I installed the first Aquasafe system in Pa. a couple of years ago. Its in an addition that I built for my wife,and has flat ceiling with an unheated attic space above, and radiant heat in the tile floor over a basement. The tubing is between the drywall and the vapor barrier with 38R fiberglass over the bottom chords of the trusses. Have had some nasty winter weather including a 6 day power outage last Christmas. We maintained the house at about 60 deg with a "kerosun" during the outage. We have had no problem with freezing or any thing else. People that come into the addition don't even notice the heads, I have to point them out.The system in the addition is quieter then the copper in the existing house and flows a lot more volumne at better pressure. We don't use the outside faucets on the old part of the house anymore, cause even with slightly longer hoses we get much more water out of the outside faucets on the addition. In my opinion,the only reason why someone wouldn't have this system installed in their home is they want the option of ________ LIGHTNING