Hot Water Heating System

Rob T

why are you so scared of a homeowner doing his own work? It's PROFESSIONALS like you that turn us homeowners off. In case you didn't see it I advised Lee to carefully consider the learning curve associated with a hot water heat install and to weigh the options.

I also stated that if he decided to DIY he had better be ready to pay extra to have it fixed IF it didn't work. On the other hand I now have a great amount of satisfaction being able to show my friends the work I did (including heating and plumbing professionals) and am enjoying my re-done system even more because I know how it works and why..



"Reading a couple books doesn't make you an expert anymore than going in your garage makes you a car"

True, not that I really want to become a car...

But on the other hand if you truly want to learn how to install a hot water heating system, and are willing to take the time, it is possible to do so.

BTW I am a professional, I have been in construction my entire adult life (29yrs now) and would never put down someone who wanted to undertake some DIY construction.

Just out of curiosity do you hire a "pro" for EVERY piece of non-HVAC work done on your house??? Hmmm I seriously doubt it..

The prices I quoted for boilers were from my own recent research (As I noted) and included the following manufacturors: W-M, SlantFin, Peerless, and Munchkin. They were for the boiler alone. (As he asked)

Just a few more thoughts from a HOMEOWNER.. (You know those guys that allow you to earn a living....)

Lee_4

Direction of circulator

We purchased a home which has a hot water whole house heating system. The house is a split level built about 1964 the boiler looks to be the original but the circulating pump looks new. I don't know much about these systems, but the pump which is mounted right on the side of the boiler is actually pumping the water INTO the boiler as the arrow is pointing toward the boiler, but the lines which feed the pump are coming up the upper level...why would the pump have to work in that direction? How expensive are new boilers? It's about a 65kbtu? Is it something I could do myself?

John@Reliable_5

few things

1) Some pump designs do pump into boiler like yours.
2) We never talk price on the wall
3) If you have to ask that,I would say hire a pro.
Hope this helps John@Reliable

Rob T

Couple of

observations from a home owner:

1 As John said, a lot (read "the majority") of boilers from that era were set to pump towards the boiler. (Check out the Q&A section on this site under hot water loop heat)

2 The lines coming down from the upper floor to the pump are the returns as it is now piped and this is fine.

3 As John said, they don't discuss price here at the wall. But I can (From a homeowners stance) tell you that they run from $1500 to $3000 (And more) depending on size, type and complexity. (This is from my own recent research into prices.) A 65kbtu is quite a small boiler (especially for the mid 60's) and can be found on the lower end of the price spectrum.

4 As far as doing it yourself? I guess it all depends on a few factors... How mechanically minded are you? Are you willing to risk having to spend a bunch of money to fix the install if you mess it up? Are you willing to learn a whole new profession? (This may sound far fetched but I have found that to properly install a boiler system you really do need to know how hot water heat works.)

If you want to get your feet wet :^) order a couple of Dans' books from here at the wall, (eg "Pumping Away and "How Come...") read them through and if you understand them and it still interests you then go for it. This is what I did and my early 60's boiler now has all new controls, a new pump and is pumping away. Plus my single loop house now has 4 functional zones.

One thing you do need to understand, you are going to get some grief from a few of the pros here at the Wall, but you will get some excellent advice and help along the way also.

Good Luck

R

Mark Wolff

New boiler

Check the Hire a Professional section of this website for a competent heating professional and let them do a correct install.

Heating systems are easy to do if you do them every day and know how they work; if you don't, they aren't.

As for the price ideas that other HOMEOWNER gave, ignore it, you don't know what brands are good, what size boiler you really need, what other parts you will have to buy, etc.

I'm not trying to put a damper on your mechanical drive, but the heating system you have to rely on to keep you and your family warm is not something to just tinker with. Reading a couple books doesn't make you an expert anymore than going in your garage makes you a car.

One thing you can do is ask your heating professional if there is anything you can do to help with the process, or if you can even have him explain the system to you (how it works, maintenance, etc.) once it is installed.

Unknown

Well said

Rob . Sometimes I cringe with the comments posted to homeowners , and the fact of the matter is that a homeowner installed job almost always looks and performs better than a job installed by most " pros " , at least in my area . I have plenty of " before " pictures to prove this fact . I do not want to say that all pros do not care about their work , but the handful of owner installed equipment I have seen in the field and the many I have seen on here is outstanding .

Thank you for pointing out the fact of doing work on your own home , work outside your own trade . I do all the work on my own home , as well as the minor jobs on my vehicles , including brakes - which has far more pontential of causing harm to myself or others if installed wrong . But it seems anyone can get brake pads at any auto store .

P. Smith

Another thing no one has brought up - where are you from. Law may require that you need to pull a permit, here in MA you need to be liceased to pull one. Yeah you can walk into Home Depot and get a boiler off the shelf and maybe able to install it your self and hope no ones the wiser. But be careful about 5 years ago a homeowner installed a new spa in his basement about a mile away from me. He piped it and wired it himself but didn't pull the proper permits. Some time later his house cought fire and burnt down. the fire was traced back to be caused by electrical somewhere in the basement. Because there warn't any permits filled with the town his HO Insurance didn't have to pay up. Just thought you should here this and keep it in the back of youre head because you may skilled enough to do the work but may not be legally alowed to do it.
Mark E

Mark Wolff

Before Pictures

I am not trying to crush a homeowners drive to do work himself, but as the next post alludes to, there's a lot more involved than buying a boiler and a few parts, and making it all work. Most jurisdictions require permits to be pulled, most require licences for those permits, most require licensed electricians to install or change all but the 24 volt wiring, most require licensed plumbers to change the boiler makeup water line since it is part of the domestic water supply until the backflow preventer, etc. etc. etc.

Can a homeowner do a good job of an install? Yes. Can a homeowner do a better job than a Professional? Doubtful. Notice I said professional. There are too many gray area service people that don't know what they are doing or don't care that give true professionals a bad name. As for the before pictures, I'd like to see a homeowner design and install systems like what I posted as typical examples.

And while I used to do some of the household upkeep around my place, now if it isn't plumbing or heating related, I don't touch it. It is cheaper and quicker for me to hire a professional to do their job, so I can continue to do mine; but that's just me. You're welcome to disagree.

Mark Wolff

Before Pictures

I am not trying to crush a homeowners drive to do work himself, but as the next post alludes to, there's a lot more involved than buying a boiler and a few parts, and making it all work. Most jurisdictions require permits to be pulled, most require licences for those permits, most require licensed electricians to install or change all but the 24 volt wiring, most require licensed plumbers to change the boiler makeup water line since it is part of the domestic water supply until the backflow preventer, etc. etc. etc.

Can a homeowner do a good job of an install? Yes. Can a homeowner do a better job than a Professional? Doubtful. Notice I said professional. There are too many gray area service people that don't know what they are doing or don't care that give true professionals a bad name. As for the before pictures, I'd like to see a homeowner design and install systems like what I posted as typical examples.

And while I used to do some of the household upkeep around my place, now if it isn't plumbing or heating related, I don't touch it. It is cheaper and quicker for me to hire a professional to do their job, so I can continue to do mine; but that's just me. You're welcome to disagree.

Lee_4

Wow...I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest..the truth is I spend six years as plumber's helper from my senior year of high school and through college. I was just curious about the directions of the circulating system. I certainly wouldn't be afraid to tackle install a system myself ONCE I learned a little more about the operation of the systems. I suppose accidents due occur whether a homeowner or a professional is doing the installation. Accident happen all the time..and insurance companies try to get out of paying claims all the time. Thanks for the comments...and while I enjoy this board....there are some people out there that are in fact..jack of all trades...and I'm one of them..thanks again...Lee

Mark Eatherton1

Me too...

:-)

ME

jackchips_2

I'm one

of those Jack's too------oh, maybe just the name doesn't count?

Jed_2

So, he could easily

study up, do the work, call a Licensed Pro to Commission it, have the Pro pull the Permit( for a fee, Would you do that, Mark?), and all is well with the bean counters.

What's wrong with that? ...... $$$$$$$$....????????

Jed

Mark Wolff

?????????????????????????????

Your quote was " the fact of the matter is that a homeowner installed job almost always looks and performs better than a job installed by most " pros " , at least in my area . I have plenty of " before " pictures to prove this fact."

I don't know what area you are from, but don't mistake heating contractors with professionals. The latter care about their work and it shows. Here's some of the work that this professional does. I don't think you would improve too much on it.

I don't have a problem with homeowners doing their own work, but usually boilers are a little more complicated than they think (how hard can it be?) and more time consuming than they imagined (Honey, when will the heat be on, it's been two weeks!)

The best course of action for a majority of homeowners is to hire a professional. And as for the other question about doing any non HVAC work on my house; I used to do my own work, but I hire professionals to do it now, I've found that it saves me time to hire a professional to do their job so I can keep making money doing mine.

DIY Homeowner

...

In Mass., you don't need to have a plumbing license to do hot water heating work, unless that work includes plumbing changes that are up-stream of the feed valve and backflow preventer supplying water to the boiler.

Just to be clear: There are intelligent, highly skilled homeowners and there are hack homeowners. The same goes with heating professionals.

P. Smith

? for you Jed

Are you saying that he could get a pro to pull the permit for him and then the HO could do all the work? I'm not sure if that is what you meant, but thats how i read it. If so thats something I wouldn't touch. Not worth it to me.

P. Smith

Homeowner your right

about how you need a plumbing licease for before the backflow preventer, but you also need either plumbing or oil burner liceanse to install a new unit, some towns even want you to pull an eletrical permit to do the wiring after the firematic (most towns let this fall under the same permit as the boiler.) By trying to do this type of work with out the proper training you could be opening a big can of worms.

Unknown

Thats some fine work

I saw those pictures when you posted them originally , and I admire the skill involved in your craftsmanship . And you are right , I could not improve on those installs if I tried my best . Well , if I had the time you did ......

If you read my post thoroughly , I stated there were only a handful of customer installed equipment that I have seen , and each one , while it isn't as pretty as your work , is certainly a notch above many others work . Just an opinion Mark . The word pros was in quotes , meaning that they were the cut and run contractors . Not true professionals such as yourself and many who post here . The reason I used quotes .

By the way , I don't see a draft regulator on the Burnham , no sheetrock above the boiler , you might not have the 6 inch minimum clearance on the left side of the boiler ( certainly not the 19 inch clearance for the burner door to swing fully open ) and the relief valve should be installed right out of the boiler by itself - no tees . I know you are up on the codes , you pointed out more than a few potential violations on one of my installs . I just wanted to point a few out that you might not have noticed . Maybe things are different where you are from ?

PS - can you shrink the picture a little ? Scrolling left to right to read each sentence is scrambling my brain more than it already is . Thanks .

steve_26

No respect

Homeowner jobs look and perform better than a qualified heating professional install.....

That's the most Stupid statement I have ever read on this site..
You have no respect for our profession..
I'm 20yrs in this business,you think reading a few books and surfing this site puts you on the same playing field as someone with yrs. of experience and ongoing education??..

Do you defend yourself in court,fill your own cavities,pull out your doctors bag and stitch yourself up? I doubt it very much cause you see us in much diferent way, what we do is easy anyone can jump right... Don't call us when it Breaks....
Steve

Mark Wolff

Codes

It was 6" clearance, but you're right, not 19". With the double hinged door, though, I can still get decent clearance for a vacuum in the firebox and the boiler cleans off the side. The baro damper was cut in afterwards. The customer didn't want it in (he is a local builder) but the tall stack was causing some problems on initial firing, so we stuck it in anyways. The drywall isn't required since it is a garage and a has a fire rated wall between it and the house, but it still was put in, the sheetrockers just didn't show up on time (GO FIGURE!). The boiler pop-off doesn't have to be installed directly into the boiler without tees, it just can't have any isolation valves between it and the boiler. The best spot for introducing boiler make-up water into the system IN MY OPINION is right there. Weil-McLain actually moved the pop-off to the front so that upper tapping could be used for that and air relief.

I am glad you took some time to check my work though, we all need to be sharpened by each other. Well, I've got to go, I'm burning daylight, and up here we only have a couple hours of that so we can't waste 'em!!!

Mark Wolff

Shady

Some shady contractors here do stuff like that. It's sad, and kind of dumb. One local heating contractor here lost a $2 million lawsuit over a chimney stack that wasn't taped with stack tape. The last tune-up had been over a year before, and the homeowner 1 YEAR later started having CO poisoning. They blamed it on the heating contractor that LAST touched it, and a jury agreed. It's sad. Insurance only paid $1 million.

Jed_2

Yes, Mark

Basically that's what Im saying. The Codes and municipal permit requirements are set up to provide a minimum set of standards for safe, functional installations. But there are avenues, and then there are avenues. It's somewhat like the stock market, eh? What level of risk is the homeowner willing, or forced(financial resources) to take?

Also, there are many levels of system complexity. There certainly are individuals who are capable of installing their own heating system.

Do I think a Pro should do it? Definitely Yes. But, the real world provides avenues.


Jed

P. Smith

good way to put it steve

I'm liceased and have bene apprenticing with a small oil company for about 11 months, I'd say we average a boiler install probably every 2 weeks, and I'm still learning something new on each one. As far as Homeowner said about a ho's job looking better than a pros, yeah he could be right in some cases. But hom many annual services or no heats have you gone to where the ho installed it them self, and made it look good because they were able to spend a day and a half just on the piping, But you find they made the litle mistake of placeing the boiler so that the side with the clean out axcess is just inches from the wall. Or all that piping they did is so close to the chamber door that it could not be opened if needed, with out cutting there beutiful piping. Doing this for less than a year i've seen it, with your time in the buisiness im sure youve seen plenty

P. Smith

Jed

pick up the yellow pages and start calling, see how many pros are willing to do that.

let me know what you find, I'm interested.

csmclean

Yep, \"good way to put it\"

...bash the hell out of 'em w/ sarcasm and insults. Compassion lies bleeding on the floor...

Craig

Unknown

Read the post Steve

And FINISH THE SENTENCE AND PARAGRAPH YOU QUOTE ! I said that the handful of homeowner installed equipment I have seen looked better than alot of the work I see around here . Handful meaning 5 or less - a very rare occasion in my 17 years of work . Maybe I could have written the statement more clearly .

I did not say reading a few books and surfing web sites qualifies anyone to install anything . Do not imply things I stated that just are not true . Having no respect can go both ways .

Try reading the post thoroughly before you make a judgement there Steve . People can agree on things , disagree , but there is always a way to do it civilly and kindly . Happy holidays .

DanHolohan

Well said, Ron.

Thanks.

Peace, lads.

Unknown

Up there

Where in Alaska are you located ? It must be a great place to work and live . Over here on Long Island we are packed in like sardines . We work in the most populated town in the country , so there is plenty of equipment to install for anyone willing to do it . Which is why we see the variety of quality we do .

I used to install an air eliminator on the 3/4 tapping off the top , with the relief valve in a tee . Glenn Stanton from Burnham told me there might be a question about the code doing it that way , I am not sure which particular one , maybe ASME , ANSI ? I'm not too good with names of agencies .

Keep up the excellent work Mark .

steve_26

Love what i do

Ron,
I read it again and I'm sorry I don't get it the 2nd time.
I agree I was overzealous in my rsponse to your post and I mean no disrepect.
I love what I do as i am sure you do also.
I think we can agree that there are plenty of unqualified
people in our trade but I see no benefit in giving it creedence in a plublic forum.
Again I apologize for flying off the handle.
Have a happy new year.
Steve.

Bob Workman

Question

Qustion: Are steam heat and hot water heat the same thing?

Mark Eatherton1

No.

They have some common looking components, but are COMPLETELY different in their function and set up.

Why do you ask?

ME

Rob T

Ron jr I agree

with Dan. Very well put and respectful also..

I wish you were located near West MI. Because I am going to have a new boiler installed next fall (If the $$ hold out after my daughter's wedding) and would be very happy to have you do it.

Rob

Duncan_9

Homeowners vs. professionals.

There shouldn't be an "us vs. them" attitude on either side. But I guess if the homeowner focuses on bad heating guys and heating guys focus on bad homeowners, that's what you get.

For someone who takes pride in their work, with every job they do, they think of ways they could have installed it better.

For someone who is interested ONLY in how fast they can get done, with every job they do, they think of ways they could have done it faster.

WHEN YOU FOCUS ON QUALITY, every boiler job you do is better than the last.

Homeowners have pride in their homes and probably lean toward quality. They may take a lot more time to do the same work as a professional, but they are willing to do it over 'til they get it right. They have the luxury of taking their time to do it right, probably in the summertime. If they are intelligent and handy, and have someone with the tools and knowledge to check out the safety issues when they're done, why not? The smart homeowner knows ignoring safety issues is foolish and dangerous. Dangers from combustion equipment are subtle, invisible, and deadly.

Professionals (someone who does it for a living) also have to make enough money to live. It's always about balancing time and perfection for someone who makes a living at it. The customer demands a reasonable price and schedule, always expecting safety - a given. No job is perfect, The pro can always think of a way he could have done it better, but he learns something from every job and every service call. The pro gets to see boilers gone bad. Hundreds of them. That knowledge is invaluable, it helps him design with an eye on failsafe installations and future service.

Knowledge is great, but experience is the best teacher. The professional sees things over and over, a hundred times to the homeowner's one time.

Eye on quality, or eye on the next job? I will always choose the professional with an eye on quality, or at least with an eye on doing it right, bulletproof.

I can't really disagree with the content of anything said in the previous posts, I understand both sides, but there's some defensive attitudes. Oh well, we're human.

Testy is interesting, but ouch! Civil is good. But in the immortal words of Popeye the Sailor Man, "I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam"

Mark Wolff

South Central AK

Kodiak Island, Alaska - the hunting/fishing paradise!

We work throughout the state though; there are jobs out in the villages that people spend 6 months just trying to get 1 contractor to give them a price, or even just promise to come do it whatever the cost. It's nice. Not too good on the family life being away though.

Bob Workman

Hot Water heating questions

Who can I talk with about questions on my heating system? My gas bills are too high. Should I replace my boiler? With What? Should p[ipes in the crawl space be insulated or just in the basement? What maintenance should I do? How do I know if this monster is operating at peak efficiency? What should the PSI be set at? More???