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RPA Memebers
This is a ridiculous viewpoint. The RPA exists FOR us radiant designers and installers and manufacturers to share information and pool resources. An RPA general member logo is not a marketing tool, except for the RPA itself, and anyone who promotes it as such is bamboozling their customers.
RPA Certification is what you're looking for, does its job in ensuring a designer/installer meets basic knowledge requirements, and doesn't take anyone with a checkbook; it takes anyone with a checkbook who meets the basic knowledge requirements it tests.
Perhaps something needs to be done to make this difference clearer to end users. Having a Wirsbo sticker in your van window doesn't imply that Wirsbo has given you the thumbs up; a Wirsbo HCT sticker does. Why should it be any different for the RPA?
RPA Certification is what you're looking for, does its job in ensuring a designer/installer meets basic knowledge requirements, and doesn't take anyone with a checkbook; it takes anyone with a checkbook who meets the basic knowledge requirements it tests.
Perhaps something needs to be done to make this difference clearer to end users. Having a Wirsbo sticker in your van window doesn't imply that Wirsbo has given you the thumbs up; a Wirsbo HCT sticker does. Why should it be any different for the RPA?
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Comments
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Question for RPA Members
Time after time we have read the horror stories concerning homeowners purchasing and installing systems from that Vermont Internet Supplier. My question is how do you feel about them being a memeber of the RPA. If they are contiually selling bad systems and then leave their customers in the dust, why isn't the RPA all over them. Isn't their a code of ethics?
Just interested in you opinions.
Thanks0 -
Interesting question
Maybe one that should be sent to the RPA management. Of course there are the legal ramifications of them doing anything, but if there is a problem they should at least be made aware of it.
We are a member an proudly display their logo on all of our ads and literature. The reason we do it, is because they do try to promote radiant heating. I would be interested in any answer you get.0 -
George
That's exactly what I was thinking. To take it a step further I would encourage all RPA members that have heard of the horror stories here e-mail them. I would encourage those that do e-mail them if you remember a post here concerning this and can find it in the archieves send it along as an attachment.
Something else that came to thought was maybe we need to start directing those that post here that have had problems with that Internet Do-It-Yourselfer Site to also e-mail the RPA. I would think that members of the RPA would police themselves. It's their organization.0 -
I think it would be best
to discuss this on the R.P.A. board.Retired and loving it.0 -
RPA
My feelings on this issue are that RPA should not police its members. We should set minimum membership requirements (i.e. licensed, insured, etc.) and then let anyone interested in radiant heating join. I am not a big fan of the internet guys. I am less a fan of exclusionary policies where a star chamber decides whos in and whos out. Where do you stop? Maybe one guy makes rubber hose, so hes out? Maybe one guy likes water heaters, so hes out too? Hey, this guy has rubber gaskets, toss him out! Nothing good comes out of exclusionary membership policies. Look at your Find-A-Contractor ads. I may think one of your advertisers is a crook. Should you ban him from Find-A-Contractor?
One of the main purposes of the RPA is education and information exchange. How can we accomplish this if one of our goals is to eliminate as members those whose ideas are different from our own (see my editorial in the RPA newsletter). Happy Holidays! -DF
PS These views are my own and not necessarily the views of the RPA
PPS Dan H., I hope I did not step on your toes by posting this response.
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Dan
The intention of the post was not to be-little the RPA. It was intended to inform members of the RPA that post here who have voiced frustration over the subject to maybe direct do-it-yourselfers to the RPA.
While I am not a member of the RPA for the subject reasons I do believe that they have the art of radiant in their best interest.
Happy Holiday's0 -
I guess we can agree to disagree...
Dan, I respect your opinion, however, I for one do not want to be a member of an association that allows its members to run roughshod over customers. This is not directed at any one entity. If I as a member have numerous dissatisfied customers, and it can be proven that I have not taken care of those clients correctly and professionally, than my membership in said organizatrion SHOULD be in jeopordy.
I think there needs to be an ethical review committee. I've said it before at the RPA web site, and I stand by my recommendation. Obvioulsy, it fell on deaf ears...Sometimes, money has more power than you would believe.
However, it is also my option to not be a member of an organization with whose prinicipals I disagree with, correct?
I agree with the non star chamber thing, but I think any organization MUST have the power to cull bad apples to protect the organizations good name. Three unanswered strikes, and you're out.
If you are a memeber of the RPA, you can go to the Members Only board. CLick on the Show Posts for the last year option, then click on a post started by myself listed as Limiting Membership. Feel free to comment on the post, which will resurect it and possibly open some lines of communication.
I also agree that consumers who feel they have been wronged should go to the RPA public forum and post their questions and comments. The forum can be reached by going to www.radiantpanelasociation.org, then click on Bulletin Board, then click on Public Bulletin Board.
JMHO
ME0 -
Hey Mark
Pretty good for one hand the day after rotater cuff surgery!
Have heard it's all about healing with that procedure so take care and follow orders! Best wishes.0 -
My right hand....
is SMOKIN'! Fire coming off the finger tip (singular):-)
ME0 -
I feel
The RPA should to be a organization that holds to high standards.If contractors,suppliers, or manufactureres aren't able to live up to these high standards they shouldn't be able to belong and desplay the RPA logo.
Personally, I'd like to be proud to desplay the RPA logo and have it really mean something other than I paid my dues for the year.The certified RPA installer/designer is a step in the right direction, but what of those who passed the test but don't follow the standard?
In order for the RPA to be seen as a creditable orginization, one that consumers can look to for quality reliable products and contractors we NEED a review committe.
With all due respect Dan,I feel a responsible committe can be put together that could look into complaints from consumers or contractors.I truely believe it would add a great deal of value to the RPA logo.
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I don't know what the answer is but.....there is no lisc'ing or group out there that can inforce integrity, in any trade. The ability to pass tests, pay fee's, and join any group, says nothing about the honesty of a person, and in fact makes a great place for such people to hide.
I'm all for a level playing field, and pay all the costs involved in this trade, but cringe at the thought of any one group saying whos good and whos bad.
A good communist system could solve the problem, if there was some way for those in control to promise they won't go bad themselves. Of course that would have to cost a lot more than the existing system, after including the bribes, free golf, etc..
Steve0 -
Who would be the ethics committee
suppose a questionable member wanted to be on the committee? Who decideds on that?
I have seen plenty of hack jobs installed by licensed masters. Seen hack jobs sold and "coached" by wholesaler and rep firms to "end users"
How far back would the ethics committee look for unethicial installs?
Tough nut to crack when you start talking "Radiant Police Force"
If the answer were easy, i suppose we would have it by now. This problem crosses trade lines also, medicial. legal, political trades as well.
We have a hack MD working in our area, talk about scandals! Not easy impeach a licensed doc.
hot rod
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The RPA
CAN'T refuse membership.
I asked about this specific company a few years back and I was told that due to the way that the RPA is structured, they can not refuse membership to anyone that pays the fee.
Not the RPA's fault.
Mark H
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Let's take a it a step further
How about this. If I as a Do-it-yourselfer purchase material from this internet provided who displays the RPA Logo and they sell me a bad design would the RPA possibly be opening themseleves up for a lawsuit.
This is my primary reason for never joining the RPA. They will take anyone with a cheeckbook.0 -
Only if
the RPA guidelines condoned a practice that was known to be a potential health threat.
They cannot be responsible for unethical behavior that falls outside their guidelines or control - unless they have chosen to shield the individual or company from censure while knowing they have preyed upon customers while using the RPA membership as a shield.
I fully agree with ME's position.
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I would say water heaters doing both heating and dhw have been proven to be a health threat AND against code in most places. Do they have to actually kill someone first?
Steve0 -
Steve
could it also be said water heaters used for JUST heating domestic, potable water, have been known to be a health threat. Possibly when operated a low output temperatures?
Same for cooling towers, a deadly threat in fact :0
hot rod
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Solution
The KING of marketing, George Lucas.
I believe it was he who instituted Dolby THX certification to movie theaters. Specific equipment installed in specific ways to meet specific measured performance standards.
While it's pass0 -
Wirsbo or the RPA?
I have to look at things from a business aspect. The RPA is a great vehicle, or at least it should be, for marketing the virtues and efficiencies of radiant to the general public. When I was a member, that is what I thought the original intent was. A contractor organization that was trying to grow and make the public aware of what it is we do as radiant contractors. Im not sure that is what it is today. But thats Ok, since they do what they do and I do what I do. I choose not to be a member for my own, admittedly, narrow minded reasons.
As far as the RPA certification goes, Im not sure the RPA should be into training and certifying contractors. That should be left to manufacturers. While we are on that subject, I wonder what the manufacturers feel about the RPA taking (trying?) over the mantle of industry trainer? I know how much time energy and money Wirsbo spends on trying to train us and has been for 15 years, that I know of. All the way back to the CWC (Certified Wirsbo Contractor) days. Anyone remember that? If I spend my hard earned monies to fly to Wirsbo for training, but Im not a member of the RPA and not certified by them does that mean Im not as good as someone who has been RPA certified? Being certified as a Wirsbo contractor means more to me and my business than being RPA certified.
It comes down to this. If the RPA goes away tomorrow, will my business suffer? I don't think so. If Wirsbo, as my chosen manufacturer, goes away, will my business suffer? It most assuredly will. To me, its that simple. I need to spend my money where I get the most bang.
Just my thoughts.
hb
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Does the RPA
have ethic standards or a set of rules like the PHCC to be part of their organization?
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I totally agree
with what you are saying. But I am finding more and more that people are asking if you are certified or a member of the RPA. It's the memebers dollars that they are spending in the marketing department and for them to allow there name to be associated with bad designs is not good for any of us now or in the future.
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The RPA
is a nonprofit corp. There are plenty of rules and bylaws defined bt IRS code 501 (c) they apply and govern the workings.
Copies of these bylaws are available to members.
The RPA board of directors works hard, for free, at trying to please all the members. Not an easy task, as you can imagine!
Maybe you should join, learn more, and offer some time of you own to get involved. It's easy to throw stones from the outside You are seeing a small portion of the actual iner workings.
hot rod
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hb, if
you were a RPA member you could check the voteing record of the manufacture members that have served on the board of directors. You may be surprised!
hot rod
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HR..........
I admire your efforts since you have been a higher up in the organization. You always have been one of my favorite people. Like I said, with my limited budget for such things, ROI is critical and I just don't see it with the RPA. Although, I did enjoy the monthly newsletter especially when someone got my blood flowing and I needed to answer!
hb
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Throwing Stones
is not my point here. It was to open eyes to those who have in the past and will in the future complain about that particular internet radiant provider.
While everyone had complained I wasn't sure that they relized that they were a member of the RPA. I also posted this because I thought it might be a good idea to let the do-it-yourselfers know that they had a place to post there frustrations.0 -
neither
of which have anything to do with the RPA or their guidelines.
Plumbing code bodies are looking at storage temperatures and are poised to raise them to 140 F. That doesn't address the distribution system or points of use, but it'll be a good start.
Cooling tower chemicals and practices have established guidelines that, when followed, offer a clear path to keeping them safe. The Legionella were seeded from the potable water, in most instances, and the cooling towers offer a suitable breeding environment for reproduction. Water droplets are aspirated into the lungs. Sounds like an open system to me with the exception that open systems aren't being treated.
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heatboy
The direction the RPA has, and is taking, is in direct response to what the majority of the members, when polled, asked for!
Contractors make up the majority, but manufacture and other catagories also have a vote, or two
The contractor members overwhelmingly ask for training and certification as priority number one.
If you were still a member you would see all the courses, manuals, classes (including those ME teaches) additional chapters thriving, etc.
RPA materials are being accepted by code authorties, school courses, as well as home study programs.
Sounds to me like the members are getting exactly what they asked for.
If the members want to clear up WH issues that too is being addressed. In fact one of the fastest working committees to date with recommadtions going to the board in less than 6 months from forming an action committee.
Again, keep in mind this is all volunteer time and energy getting things done.
If the majority ask to see your smileing face on TV as the radiant poster boy (you have my vote) we will do our best to make that happen.
I don't know how to make it any more fair. If the majority want a ethics committee, that request too will not fall on deaf ears at the board level.
hot rod
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RadNet Resurection
As I had just read professor ME's post on the RadNet last night, I found it curious that the same subject matter was being discussed here today on The Wall.
I truely believe that if the RPA was able to hold it's membership body to a strong code of ethics, it would be of benefit to it's reputation and thereby strengthen the organization as a whole. However, I know first hand that a SINGLE slanderous remark can nearly ruin ones pride and reputation within this small industry.
It's hard when you know in your heart that some of the members there hurt this organization you believe so strongly in by the way they conduct themselves. Specially if you feel a strong sense of pride in calling oneself an ethical person.
You must remember to be extreemly carefull if you intend to police our brother and fellow RPA members no matter how much we may dislike them.
My Grandfather once told me; " There is no such thing as Business Ethics.,,, Only Ethics." How right he was.
Gary Wallace
Wallace Radiant Design
*To catch up with me in real time, use AOL's Instant Messanger. My user name is: Radiantfloors
Add me to your buddy list. I've got a bunch of Wallies on my list.
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RPA
The RPA has taken great steps in it's training programs and I consider them as good as any manufacturers training.I've been to Wirsbo's training and consider them the leaders as far as manufacturers are concerned.
My hat is also off to the RPA board of directors who spend countles hours and time at there own expense.I realize it's imposible to please everyone.
I just feel the organization needs to grow and become more respected in the public and industries eyes as the "authority on radiant heat".
Radiant is a fast growing industry and products are changing quickly.Many building inspectors have no clue what there looking at when they inspect radiant jobs,at least around here.Marginal and poor jobs fall through the cracks and there is noone for them to turn to.I answer questions for code officials regularly.
I'd like to see the RPA as the place inspectors, homeowners,and contractors can turn to to find answers to their questions.
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RPA
I respect the opinions posted here regarding the RPA. My comments are posted on the Members section of the RPA website. I agree with Dan H. that the RPA site is a better place to discuss this. -DF
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Training within our industry is critical to our success. But training is more than just attending a Wirsbo class or a tekmar seminar. It needs to be an ongoing learning process through reading, discussions, integrating new ideas into our designs and on the jobsite, dropping in on these forums, etc. The RPA's offering of membership and certification should be looked at as one tool in a complete kit of knowledge, not as the only education an installer will ever get.
As to unethical or damaging behaviour by our radiant brothers, I don't see a workable way to exclude or eliminate them from either the RPA or our larger fraternity. They are here and always will be. If one goes belly-up or moves on to greener (read: more lucrative) pastures, they will be quickly replaced by another.
I've had personal experience with some of our internet friend's unhappy customers and as much as I wanted to tell the poor guys what saps they had been to think they could get something for next to nothing, in the end I couldn't see where pouring salt onto an open wound would be beneficial. I helped them straighten out their systems, let them know I (being local) would be happy to visit their home and see what could be done to make their system work better. I figured generating a little good-will would go a lot farther to blunt any criticisms they may have toward radiant heat and maybe in the future, when they are telling their friends about what kind of heating system should go into their new house, they would have good things to say about radiant and perhaps steer them away from the internet sellers. After all, word-of-mouth can be the best, as well as the worst, form of advertising for us.
I don't know if it is proper to name names in discussions about unethical or damaging behaviour on the part of our cohorts (especially if it is only hearsay, and not personal experience) but I would hope that consumers who have had bad experiences will make their complaints known on this (and the RPA's) forum. Exposure to light is surely the best way to rid a room of cockroaches.
Jeff0 -
Thank you, Dan.
I appreciate that.Retired and loving it.0 -
Huh?
> This is a ridiculous viewpoint. The RPA exists
> FOR us radiant designers and installers and
> manufacturers to share information and pool
> resources. An RPA general member logo is not a
> marketing tool, except for the RPA itself, and
> anyone who promotes it as such is bamboozling
> their customers.
>
> RPA Certification is what
> you're looking for, does its job in ensuring a
> designer/installer meets basic knowledge
> requirements, and doesn't take anyone with a
> checkbook; it takes anyone with a checkbook who
> meets the basic knowledge requirements it
> tests.
>
> Perhaps something needs to be done to
> make this difference clearer to end users.
> Having a Wirsbo sticker in your van window
> doesn't imply that Wirsbo has given you the
> thumbs up; a Wirsbo HCT sticker does. Why
> should it be any different for the RPA?
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Huh?
Respectfully Rob I disagree.Yes the RPA is a place for learning and education,but it also promotes radiant to the end user.If the end user can't look at RPA members for quality and integrity something is lost.Otherwise were just a guild.
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I haven't seen any RPA ads lately so I guess that aspect of the RPA's existence isn't high on my mind. To me it's more about giving ME the tools I need to sell radiant to my clients moreso than the RPA directly selling radiant. And to that end, the RPA has certification already, so as long as they differentiate certification from general membership in their marketing (which is perhaps what they need to work on), I really fail to see a problem beyond that.0 -
Perception
Rob,
It's fine if your definition of RPA membership is that it is only for the education and betterment of its members. But what about the public's perception? When an uninformed consumer walks through my front door and sees my RPA sticker posted alongside my BBB sticker, isn't it natural for him to think there's something good being implied there?
Being RPA certified still doesn't guarantee a level of competance or honesty, just like not having that certification doesn't mean the installer doesn't know what he's doing. And being a Wirsbo HCT member only means I went to Minnesota for 3 days, not neccesarily that I learned anything (except to like Red Green).
I hope that my RPA membership brings me more than education and a place to debate/learn from my fellow members. I also hope it can mean something positive to my customers.
Jeff0
This discussion has been closed.
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