Ultra-fin

VivaVegas

Sooooooo, has anybody out there used this product? How does it stack up against other below floor options? How about installation ease?

Opinions????

VV

Justin Gavin

Give it a shot

We have installed it. I find that it does a good job heating the floor if you follow the guidelines they suggest. We have installed several jobs with it and have had no complaints yet.

The spacing they suggest is fine as long as on the first two passes you you place your tubing 6" than 12" on the perimeter of the outside walls.

It works very similar to having bare baseboard under a joist.

Remember to include extra time in you bid for boring holes through the joists.

Instead of rivits you might consider 1" sheetmetal screws. We have one guy place a pair with the 2 center screws in and another follow behind with and screw the rest in.

Once set make sure that the Ultra-Fin is parrellel to the floor and not pitched at a crazy angle and that the fins are centered in the joists.

I have seen people badmouth them on "the wall". And I think it might be different in other parts of the country (mild to moderate) winters.

But we are in wisconin and it is cold. We start using 180 supply temps in late Oct Early Nov until April and sometimes during May so are temps are pretty high with baseboard already and if you wanted to add underfloor in a kitchen, foyer, or anywhere else I think this is the way to go.

Make sure you plan you loops ahead of time and make sure your installers wear gloves, Ultra-Fin is sharp!

Most importantly ensure you insulation under the "fin" is tight and reflective if the surface is unheated, such as a basement.

Also make sure that your guys keep the tubing as close to the 2" mark under the floor as possible and CYA on the perimeter and you won't have any problems.

I am not a physics major but I think there is a time and place for everything that is Hydronic and if you are remodeling a home or can't afford gypcrete than this is a definate option.

People can yap all day long about efficiency but when it comes down to it they want there heat when it is 10 below on a Saturday night and in my opinion Ultra-Fin works if properly installed and you cover the perimeter area on outside walls.

I think it scares some people because it is such a simple design and concept that they think it won't work. Those are the same people that overcomplicate their systems.

I am not saying that over design is a bad thing because if I have an unlimited budget I love to go a bit "overboard" but I will be the first to admit when I do, I usually spend more time than not trying to fine tune the system.

I can say it works for us and we havn't had any complaints.

It won't keep the heat as long as a high mass floor would but it still has the same effect on the "feet" and initial installation costs are quite lesse than a gypcrete panel.

I have done staple up, suspended and Ultra-Fin and until proven wrong I will prefer the Ultra-Fin 9 times out of 10.

With that said the only time I wouldn't recommned it is those cases where you have limited square footage to get the heat load required. (examples 1/2 bath, walk in closet) At those points you might consider staple up or a second stage heat source.

Good Luck,

Justin

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Good to hear that it works.

Any problems in kitchens where cabinetry is typically around the outside perimeter and floor space is often limited?

Have you measured floor surface temperature as compared with other radiant floor methods? "More heat at lower floor temperature" seems a bit strange.

"Traditional radiant floor systems are based on heat contact transfer technology. In these systems, hot water tubing makes direct contact with floor materials in an effort to conduct heat to the living space above. The heat has to first warm the concrete slab and then the floor, which is unnecessarily complex and slow. Ultra-Fin™, on the other hand, immediately begins heating the room the minute the hot water valve opens."

It's a statement like that which makes me skeptical. Somehow it doesn't have to heat the floor to heat the room? Here "traditional" seems to mean concrete slab.

"In traditional radiant systems, the narrow strips of flooring directly in contact with the pipe can reach temperatures as high as 140°F. This localized heating can cause cracking in hardwood or tile flooring and discoloration in hardwood and linoleum flooring. With the Ultra-Fin™ system, however, the actual floor subsurface never exceeds 83°F, which is well below body temperature. This ensures no discoloration or cracking, making the Ultra-Fin™ system compatible with a full range of floor coverings."

Here "traditional" seems to mean bare-tube staple-up. Floor sub-surface temperature is somehow below the temperature of the floor surface in their output table?

VivaVegas

Justin, thanks for the report on Ultra-Fin,

It was most enlightening to hear from someone who has completed several installations with this product.

A couple of things come to mind. The first is whether you have a URL for a Ultra-Fin web site put up by the manufacturer.

Secondly, you mention 180 degree water temps. Surely you are not putting 180 degree water into the Ultra-fin? Or did I misread you?

How even have you found the heat to be? It would seem to me that because there is no direct contact with the sub-floor and the entire joist cavity is being heated, conventional striping issues would not present themselves.

Does this system require the use of Pex made by them or are you using Pex of your own choice when it comes to manufacturer? Proper contact would be an issue.

You mention installation costs with respect to wet systems but how do you find installation times in comparison to staple-up plates and say PAP or PEX stapled to the sides of the joists?

The same question as above but with respect to material costs - assuming that the heat source and controls are identical.

Forgetting about wet systems or above floor systems - would you say that response times are the same, better or worse then staple up or suspended?

VV

Justin Gavin

More Opinions

To answer your questions I would have to say this,

What we do is look at each individual room that is getting the Ultra-Fin. If there is a need to vary the supply temperature from room to room where we might have to use higher temps we keep those loops on a seperat manifold and install a thermostatic mixing valve a and monitor the manifold for a while. We raise the temperature as needed. There have been occassions where we were using about 170 degree water (high seeling, poor insulation). The average temperature that I have used was about 140 to 150.

To be safe put in the mixing valve if you are using any high temp baseboard. If no baseboard is being used than use your judgement.

The only pex we use is Rehau and so I think you should be able to use any other manf. pex as long as it is type A.
You won't be able to put a full fin on the return bends because the radius is too tight. What I do is cut the fins in half and use half a fin for the return bends.

Compared to staple up I believe that the response isn't as quick. If you are going to use a setback give yourself some extra time when setting the "occupied" times. I think the system needs more time to creat that convection chamber.

Labor time can be a toss up. Make sure you use a Milwaukee or similar self feeding bit to drill your holes.

I felt the heat to be more even than staple up but unless you are an experienced in both you wouldn't know the difference.

We keep our spacing a little tighter than the what the manuf. suggests to ensure we have enough heat. In worse case scenerio.

They offer software program and you can talk to them directly.

Call 18885652267.

Good Luck,
Justin

heatboy

Considering the fact...............

that I despise drilling holes in joists, I don't see any use for this product when there are so many really terrific option for heating.

If you design your radiant systems properly and around the lowest possible water temps and low temperature heating equipment, Ultra Fin doesn't fit this scenerio.

hb

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Delbert Nicks

Ultra-fin

In question to the ultra-fin. What would be the advantage or disadvantage of using copper pipe instead of pex. I have a installation manual form ultra-fin and they recommend the use of pex-al-pex (KITEC) as when it is put in it stays straight on straight runs. The copper pipe would it put our more heat at a lower temp as the radiant of copper seems to be higher. Has any one used this. If you want a book call the phone number on the last info and they will send you a guide. One person I had contacted said that the spaces of pipe needs to be closer than 2 feet apart.
Thanks for the wall as it has a lot of good info on it.