Unfortunate customer

steve_26 · December 2003

He's going to learn the hard way.You did the right thing trying to salvage some of it (ie) use the boiler scrap the rest,Use heat transfer plates, proper spacing ect...you did what you could...I have seen one of these Internet systems and just recently spoke to another HO who bought a Snow melt System from the same Co from Vermont. They told her to just hook it up to your existing boiler.SHe told me the specs and I told her if they were not prepared to buy a bigger boat I could'nt help They were'nt, I went fishing...

That said,I take my job very serious as a professional, along side a Doctor,Lawyer,Dentist ect.whaterver the profession. When I need legal advice I call a lawyer,My accountant handles the books,I get sick I go to the Doc's office.When's the last time anyone ever heard of anyone calling a dentist for advise on how to fill a cavity at home
or for that matter negotiate the cost of a filling while you sit in his chair?
We've seen alot of change in the past 20yrs in our profession and I think the most important one is the Respect
for what we do as Highly Skilled.
I don't have any problem helping some poor soul who got wacked buying some bad system, being over the internet or not. What I do have a problem is when these DYI's, who lets face it want to save a buck because of the lack of respect for our Profession want to negotiate after you give a price to fix the mess they put themselves in get no sympathy from me.
Steve

Wayco Wayne · December 2003

A customer asked me

for a price for a radiant floor and boiler changeout back in Oct. He was going to go with us but called me last minute to cancel saying he had found a company on the internet that would sell him what he needed and tell him what to do so he could do it himself and save money. I told him he was taking a risk but wished him luck. Now he needs help. He called me and asked if I would help him. I went out and looked things over. They had sold him 7/8 inch pex which they told him to run once down each joist (16 inch center). He ruined 2 rolls of pex trying to bend it into the joists. He has a roll in there now, screwed directly to the sub floor. They also sent some pieces of aluminum flashing that had been bent around a 7/8 pipe and not too neatly I might add that he was to put around the pex and screw to the sub floor. These are to be his emmision plates. I'm not impressed. I also dont think it will work. They sold him a Munchkin and sent along pre made circ manifolds with swing check valves instead of flo check valves. I feel bad for him. He has obviously been taken. Has anyone heard of such things. My charts dont even show me if 16 inch center 7/8 pex will work, on staple up. I checked on the chance they would. Any input would be appreciated. WW

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Mark Wolff · December 2003

7/8\" Staple Up

Usually 7/8" on 16" centers will not be enough to heat the house comfortably and the floor evenly. Screwed right to the underside of the floor will work fine as long as there is a 2" air gap between that and the insulation below it; allowing the heat to spread out and warm more area of the floor. Reflectors would not be necessary if the tubing were installed on 8" centers.

I'd rip it out as nice as possible, and start over right. About now the customer is begining to understand why you charge what you charge. If it were me, the price would probably go up a little, not to get back at the customer, but just to cover the extra hassle of dealing with what parts are or aren't there and demo/remodel work as opposed to fresh install.

Hope he learned his lesson.

Tony_8 · December 2003

check

the other thread I think is titled Radiant Problems.. Help!
Exact same thing in a log cabin.

bob young · December 2003

a **** lookin' for a daddy

i would run away from this clown so fast that lightning could not catch me. this is a disaster waiting to happen. i rephrase that ---it is happening right before your very eyes. nothing good is goin' on with project.

Mark Hunt · December 2003

Wayne!

Once you touch this, YOU OWN IT!

I have been hearing a lot of this "help the poor guy" stuff lately.

WHEN WILL THE I-NET COMPANY THAT SOLD HIM THE STUFF BE HELD LIABLE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

So let me get this straight...

Customer by-passes a pro because they "feel" that radiant heat is easy and they can do it themselves because an internet company sez so.

They buy the system and install it according to the "design" that THEY PAID FOR.

System doesn't work.

Call the guy that was too much money because the internet company doesn't guarantee ANYTHING and claims that the problem is not their fault.

Get mad when the by-passed contractor won't help and threaten to tell all their friends what an unprofessional jerk he is.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....................

Wayne, the second you lay a finger on this you bought it. It's YOUR system now.

Unless they agree to COMPLETELY replace the system, walk away.

Mark H

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Wayco Wayne · December 2003

You're right.

I'm being too compassionate. I a sucker for a hard luck story. I think I'm going to give a price for replacing it all and make it mine. If he doesn't go with that he can find somebody else.

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RC · December 2003

Hoodwinked

"With this ring I thee wed you radiant system, now and forever"

Wayco Wayne · December 2003

I just read the

thread about Radiant heat, Help. Uncanny the similarities. These internet companys are really a big risk. WW

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B. Tice · December 2003

Yeah, I agree, I would stay away from this one Wayne. Be careful.

Rob T · December 2003

As a DIY

homeowner I just want to chime in here with a couple of observations.

1 If it were me (And it could have been or be) I would be expecting to pay extra to have a pro fix my mess.

I know that whenever I take on something I am not a pro at that I am risking spending more than if I had a pro do it from scratch. A lot of what I now DIY is because I want to know how things work not to save a few $$. (Since coming here to the wall I have learned a tremendous amount about hydronic heat and boiler installations. Enough so that when I replace my current boiler I am going to have a pro do it.)

2 Compassion in a pro is a rare commodity it seems, don't lose it! Just make sure it doesn't affect your bottom line to greatly. Talk to the guy, if it were me I'd be grateful that a pro was willing to rescue me, whatever the cost.

Just some rambling thoughts on a wintery day...

R

Mark J Strawcutter · December 2003

start over

Take the high road, don't practice "punitive pricing" but don't screw yourself, either.

Include cost of ripping our what he's installed (with allowance for him doing it himself?).

Any components you can use and warrant (like the munchie but check with manufacturer to be sure) be sure to add in your normal markup/profit for it.

How can you "ruin" pex - short of cutting it or abraiding it badly?

Don't try to band-aid what he's already done.

Mark

hr · December 2003

Another large diameter problem

with short loops is the velocity. The fluid may be moving very slow, it sometimes becomes hard to keep the system air free. Seems the fluid moves so slow, under 1 fps, it doesn't carry the air along to the purger.

hot rod

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hr · December 2003

I have seen a few also

not unusual to see lots of repair couplings in those systems, as kinked tubes are common amony inexperienced tubesters

Generally that is how I get the call, someone looking for a dozen repair couplings.

Used to be a real odd size tube was used. Regular pex fittings didn't work. Most folks cobble up some hardware store fitting fix!

hot rod

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Mark J Strawcutter · December 2003

kinks

can't you just heat it up and have it return to its original shape?

Mark

Floyd_5 · December 2003

Not with....

the "crapola" pex most of these companies use....

Dave DeFord · December 2003

Just another take ..

on this situation. The other guys are right that you will own this system after it is completed. I also think that you should either charge to rip out the old stuff or let the homeowner do it himself. Then charge a fair price to install the job right. Whatever you do, don't forget to OK any warranty you are going to assume with the manufacturers. The upside of this is that the homeowner will likely never try to fix this system himself and you will probably have a customer for life.

csmclean · December 2003

> homeowner I just want to chime in here with a

> couple of observations.

>

> 1 If it were me (And

> it could have been or be) I would be expecting to

> pay extra to have a pro fix my mess.

>

> I know

> that whenever I take on something I am not a pro

> at that I am risking spending more than if I had

> a pro do it from scratch. A lot of what I now DIY

> is because I want to know how things work not to

> save a few $$. (Since coming here to the wall I

> have learned a tremendous amount about hydronic

> heat and boiler installations. Enough so that

> when I replace my current boiler I am going to

> have a pro do it.)

>

> 2 Compassion in a pro is a

> rare commodity it seems, don't lose it! Just make

> sure it doesn't affect your bottom line to

> greatly. Talk to the guy, if it were me I'd be

> grateful that a pro was willing to rescue me,

> whatever the cost.

>

> Just some rambling thoughts

> on a wintery day...

>

> R

csmclean · December 2003

I agree with Rob T

As another DIY (such taboo that expression is!!!), I sometimes feel the homeowners are getting trashed royal on this site. Sure, "he got what he paid for", and perhaps showed gross naivetee in this. I admire you guys on this site, and am an advocate of leaving things beyond my reach to the pros. I've lurked here for a long time, and have purchased a few of Dan's excellent books; yesterday I offered to loan "The Lost Art..." to our local plumber to help fix the school's ailing steam system.

But, I have reservations. I have been an avid DIYer for years, since I bought my first house in 1995. I installed a used gas furnace, including the gas piping, chimney liner, wiring and ducting necessary. The piping passed inspection. When I sold the house last year, the furnace and heating system still passed muster. The house is still standing. Maybe I 'got lucky'...But, I have a couple of personal concerns about this trashing of DIYers by some:

1. I fear the day will come when laws will make it illegal to do ANY job by one's self in one's own home (too many chances for suits), thus we'll have to find some other way to blow ourselves up. Or form a rebel band of 'Maverick DIYers'...

2. Compassion seems to be haemorrhaging from this society faster than a ruptured aorta. Being of a sensitive nature, I reckon I could stand to tune things out a little more effectively. But the bitterness lasts sometimes, and I become even more bound and determined to make things work.

The example of these two poor souls who were duped by the promises of a DIY radiant job is sad. But, I'd likely read those nasty comments and punitive attitudes above and likely say "F--- this s---; I'm just-a puttin' in another furnasty!"

So, bash away, my friends, and don't lose that compassion I've seen you demonstrate!

Craig

heatmakersheating Alton NH · December 2003

have mercy!!!

I just got done with a customer that tried to save a buck and well here goes,I came in redid the job and charged customer low money(the customer had been also ripped off buy another contractor and I could feel for him.) The whole week and a half we were there they fed us,not bologna but fresh made home good cooking. The owner wanted to help so we let him help,(we let him cut every hole in the house for us:) we were treated like kings!!! no I did not make the 3g a week I usualy make, but I did make friends! HELP these folks out!you may have a good time like I Did!And you may make a new friend.

ps. For all of you who scoff at this because you think its just about money or you get pissed because how dare some home owner try to maybe save himself abuck by doing some of the work themselves ,my new friends have in two weeks brought me $45,000 In new work.I now am in the center of a booming area that just keeps telling each other about me.If you go to the local building suply store I am now the recomended heating contractor. All of this chain reaction was caused by 2 happy home owners. how does that go? Do unto others...

pss. do you know how good it is to do a whole house with out cuttingone hole.

psss. my head still hurts from drinking the BIG bottle of Irish creme that I drank last night.(yes they gave me the booze to.

Duncan_6 · December 2003

Same old story

Here's the deal...

There's good DIYs and bad DIYs.

There's good heating guys and bad heating guys.

Choose the criteria to define good or bad.

Whenever someone slams a DIYer or a heating guy, they're most likely slamming one of the bad ones, don'tcha think?.

We're all DIYers to some extent. My best experiences come from working with knowlegeable homeowners.

Paul Pollets · December 2003

Forensic Repairs...

Wayne, I fix alot of systems in the course of my business that have been improperly installed. It takes special skills to not only describe and correct any errors, but special handling of the customer, as well. What I like to do is: perform a heat loss calculation using appropriate software, take pictures of the "as-built" components or tubing install, write a letter describing what I found and the appropriate corrections required,a contract proposal describing the scope of work and price for repairs. I charge a reasonable fee for the process and offer to rebate the fee if I get the work. If the customer chooses to take a legal route to recover monies from the original installer (or others), make sure you document everything you do and say. Keep it professional.

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Geo_2 · December 2003

have mercy!!!

Yea thats it... let's all drop off some real sharp boring bit's and a hole-hog at the customers house...get um up on your ladder and put them to work, you may want to run this by your insurance company.

heatmakersheating Alton NH · December 2003

I did run it by my Ins. company, they had me have my lawyer buddy draw up a liability contract! oh and I even gave him nice new bits to cut with. who knows maybe I will let the next customer bring in the boiler...Did I tell you I get free legal's because I treated someone else right?Do unto others...:]

Geo_2 · December 2003

have mercy!!!

You can have the homeowner sign contrats till your blue in the face heatie!!, does'nt mean your not going to be sued if they get hurt and that's what will happen when your penny pinching customers break a nail. Get some better legal advise.

jackchips_2 · December 2003

I'm in the

compassionate column Wayne. It had to take a lot for the HO to call you back.

Paul gives excellent advice on how to approach the situation.

Use very favorable financial terms and go for it.

Art Pittaway · December 2003

Hot Rod, your the first....

I wondered who would ask, 7/8" PEX, good grief, is this a house or a warehouse? I designed, installed and know that my customers have been pleased with 6000 + sq/ft shops and never had to go over 1/2" tube. Know wonder he kinked it, you need a heat gun just to bend it in a 16" loop. "Let the buyer beware" and " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". The supplier should be taken to court, but he won't because it's all legal.

Art

Wayco Wayne · December 2003

Thanks for the input guys

I taked with the homeowner this morning and left him with things to think about. I told him I would only take on the job if he let us put it in right. I also suggested joist trak plates so he could get the most out of his munchkin with the lower water temps. I also told him I would do the design and sell him the material to intall it himself and could pay to have my helper help him so he didn't have to pay for me for the mundane things. I know he is besieged and upset and doesn't know who to believe, but he seems like a gentle soul who needs help and may appreciate a path out of this mess. I gave him some realistic numbers based on a heat load I did back in October and told him not to decide right away. I also gave him the phone number of another customer who I did the same arrangement with, who is heating well and is very happy. I'll find out tommorrow what he wants to do. WW

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Dave Yates (PAH) · December 2003

And the scoundrels go scott free

I wish (it's my x-mas wish HB!) the DIY'ers had more faith in us. If only they'd be a bit more up front about wanting to do much of the work themselves, life would be better for all of us.

We've been working in concert with homeowners who want to save money by farming out as much as they feel they can handle with the installs. That way, I know they're getting top-notch materials, expert job-specific advice and a warranty to back up the entire design. It's a win-win scenario.

There is a special place reserved in hell for the internet hucksters who take the money & run - right next to Saddam's room. They foster the notion that our work requires no special knowledge and that radiant heating is so simple anyone can do it - preying on the innocents who want to believe there's some truth in that notion.

Let the buyer beware!

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Geo_2 · December 2003

And the scoundrels go scott free

I bet you dollars to donuts Dave won't be dropping off tools to the home owner, sorry people, everyone is not poor... In fact I find the "pennypinchers" to be the tightest and there check's bounce twice as often.If you want to make "smiles" instead of dollars please find another trade, I will run this by my auto mechanic and see how it fly's.

heatmakersheating Alton NH · December 2003

Geo needs a hug

geo needs a hug I think,My 20 year old helper makes 1g a week just for treating people right and doing the job like it was his home. If you would like Geo I could send him over to give you a big hug... maybe ????

Ken C. · December 2003

Geo,
I had a (plumbing) service call today. The homeowners were both doctors who had enough money to hire a nanny to watch their toddler. Anyway, I gave the doctor a price of $375 to repair a running toilet (bad ballcock and flapper) and install the customer's Home Cheapo faucet on an existing pedestal sink. I also offered him the option of replacing the toilet instead of repairing it for a total of $500.
When I called him on the phone to give him the price, he asked if I was serious. I told him I was. Long period of silence. Finally, he said, "I hadn't planned on spending that much money." After I hung up the phone, the nanny said that the toilet has been constantly running for the last 2 years. So you're right that often the worst penny-pinchers are those who have money. Many plumbers I know said they hate to work for doctors. I'm not saying all doctors are cheap, but today's experience just reinforces the stereotype a bit more.
Ken

jackchips_2 · December 2003

Tough day, Dave?

"-----Special place in hell---------next to Saddam".

That doesn't sound like you.

Just for being an "Internet Huckster"? How about Purgatory for as long as the item they sell doesn't work?

It's still Caveat Emptor in this great country.

Dave Yates (PAH) · December 2003

lost bet

I like my doughnuts by the dozen, so pay up! Tools, including power ones, go with the HO installs if they prove themselves mechanically inclined.

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Dave Yates (PAH) · December 2003

Isn't

Pergatory the place between Heaven & Hell? Every day is a tough day here of late. More work than we can handle & Mom is eating hospital food while her roommate is suffering from dementia. The dementia patient's family is suffering a special kind of hell and I feel for them.

But every tomorrow holds the promise of a new day and a clean slate. My glass will always be half full, even when it's not.

Folks who take advantage of gullible folks (like the internet hucksters) should be the ones in that neighboring hospital bed.

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csmclean · December 2003

How's about

another trade for you, Mr. Compassionate! There's already too much of an attitude of 'the world ain't fair, so I gotta screw the other guy first' out there. It doesn't work for long, and makes this world a horribly boorish place to live.

Happy Solstice,

Craig

jackchips_2 · December 2003

Yes,

it is between heaven and hell for us "older" Catholics.

Sure hope your Mom is home soon. The prayers continue.

Wayco Wayne · December 2003

Just to finish this line

The Homeowner decided to not take my offer. I half expected him not to. He has invested so much time and effort getting as far as he has I can see it would be hard for him to let it go. Instead of checking out this site and calling my other customer like I suggested, he called the internet company that sold him everything, and asked for reassurance the 7/8 pex on 16 inch centers would work. What a surprize when they said it would. He will find someone else who is willing to install the system according the the specs set by the net company. I was not certain it would work so I would not be party to it. Perhaps it will work OK.

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[Deleted User] · December 2003

so he's wasted your time

TWICE...i'd write that guy off, and put a big red X on his roledex card.

bob young · December 2003

christmas present

GOD may have just given you the best christmas gift you will ever get.that job would have been your worst nightmare. give thanx it is over.

Mark Wolff · December 2003

Anamorphic

Reheating pex to its anamorphic state to remove kinks only works on Wirsbo Aquapex and HePex, and Rehau pex tubing to my knowledge. Anyone else know of others that the manufacturer allows?

Unfortunate customer

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