Vent Dampers

Unknown

Question is this, when you find a damper needs replaced and you do not have one available in your truck what do you do?

Assume this is in the winter with temps below freezing.

jim lockard

the little switch

Slide that little switch to service? better yet jump out the damper and the customer has heat.

Unknown

What are you jumping out?

and are you leaving it jumped out permanently. Is the damper removed from the vent or is it in the open position?

What would you do if the customer called you after you left and said do not bother putting in a new damper? Everything is working since you left so I do not want to spend any money to replace the damper.

jim lockard

did -u- not

say it was freezing cold and the family had no heat? If I kill power to the damper at the plug (honeywell damper )then jumper the contacts at the xformer allowing all saftys to stay in line (limits and spill switch)yet vent damper is out of system. Tim some parts are not easy to get in rual areas last time I ordered a vent damper 2/3 weeks out. In your opinion did I do something wrong.

Dale

What we do

We remove alot of dampers,we ask the customer if they want to pay the cost and labor of a new one or have the furnace running again, most of what's repalced were those added to WA furnaces. We do not allow the blade to stay in the pipe. We either remove the damper and replace the spot with pipe or cut out the blade. We then rewire the furnace as needed, we do not wire the damper open, too much risk. If we had a comm. water heater or factory supplied damper on a boiler we advise the customer to call someone else unless they wanted to wait for us to find the part.

Frank_15

just cap it

Just put a cap on the smoke pipe and jump out the damper

jim lockard

Cap

So Just pull the smoke pipe off and cap it how does the furnace vent if I do that

Unknown

Control & Equipment Manufacturers

what is your policy concerning vent dampers whcih are a part of the design of the package. Can a tech remove the damper and not replace it? What is the liability in doing so if any?

Is it okay to jump out the module or relay which has had the internal safety fuse blown? It will not operate if the damper is disconnected so what is the tech supposed to do?

Unknown

Jim Lockard I am going to hold

on giving answers until we get some more replies to my post. I am curious to see what is being done with these dampers.

We have had some real problems up here in New England with actions being taken on dampers which may not be safe.

[Deleted User]

i jump the module pins

by moving the pins in the damper plug whick i wire nut the wires together,,,but i always,,always,,,sawzall out the damper blade..this gets them thru the night..then they either get a new damper or if they dont want one, we replace it with flue pipe..

Unknown

Gerry do you

leave the control jumped out after you install a piece of flue pipe or do you replace the control?

I assume you are jumping out the two middle pins on the module vent damper connector???

[Deleted User]

just leave it jumped out..

is there any problem in doing so that i should be aware of?

Unknown

Gerry it depends on

your company policy. There is a dispute going on here in the southern New England area about this very thing. I am trying to find out what everyone is doing and how the manufacturers feel about removing vent dampers and jumping out the controls.

Unknown

It seems that many

companies have a policy of leaving the damper in the flue and removing the blade or wiring it open with bailing wire. They then jump out the damper plug on the primary control. Hardly anyone is replacing the dampers. The actuators for these dampers are supposed to be available. I am being told that most supply houses only want to sell the entire damper. It is also a problem with wiring from one brand to another.

Dale

Jumper it

Timmie, we jumper out the control, started out with the G60s and still do, we feel if the damper is completely removed and the system rewired to as it was before the damper we really haven't changed anything. For Carrier product where the tab is broke we just piggy back spade from W to Gas1. I feel the key in the discussion is to remove the blade, I see too many wired open or just left open.

kk_2

Is the problem with leaving it in place and open the possibility that it could somehow close by itself? Aren't the actuators spring loaded to hold them open?

Just curious.

jim lockard

Stay on it

Tim, Let's get it right. j. lockard

Unknown

Dale the question that

has come up is from an inspector here in New England area who insists that the boilers are designed with the vent damper and that it must continue to be part of the installation. It can not be altered in anyway without directions from the manufacturer. This all started with a home inspection and the inspector questioning the operation of the boiler that had the damper blade removed and the control jumped out.The local inspector being called in by the buyer to give a ruling.

It has been my instruction that if the damper is part of the design of the equipment it can not be altered. If the damper fails it must be replaced. The jumping out of the control is a temporary solution until a new one can be installed.

In the past I carried a one foot piece of 4 thru 8 inch flue pipe. I removed the damper and installed the piece of flue pipe until the new damper could be installed.

The only time a vent damper could be removed was if it was a retrofit and the customer decided that they did not want it any longer. In that case it was removed and a brand new primary control was installed.

Bill from Honeywell posted quite a while back that Honeywell would not condone jumping out any primary controls relative to vent damper connections.

I would like to hear from Burnham or Weil-McLain, I may give them a call and get a ruling.

Frank_15

it doesn't

jim lockard

Tim

Question is the vent damper part of burnham and Wiel/McLain UL/ASME rating? what if you do not put them in to begin with. Did a HB Smith boiler last year and knowing what a pain the damper can be I just left it out, plus I was pressed for space. Was not show on the picture. City inspector approved it, Va state boiler inspector gave a blessing??? Oh well one less thing to break. J. Lockard

Unknown

Tim

No need to call. If the boiler was originally equipped and certified with use of a vent damper, then it should be replaced. As far as the boiler AFUE ratings are concerned, the boilers are tested, rated and certified with the dampers and the ratings reflect their use. In accordance with page 9 of our Series 2 Installation Manual it states "TO MEET FEDERALLY MANDATED EFFICIENCIES, THIS BOILER MUST BE EQUIPPED WITH A VENT DAMPER".

We no longer plug the vent damper directly into ignition modules or primary controls and haven't for many years. We provide a harness to plug the damper into that up until just recently was equipped with a resistor in the event that the boiler may have been a larger model that did not require the use of the damper. The harness would have come equipped with a jumper plug to jump the current through the resistor to simulate the resistance of the damper. If a damper is used, the resistor burns out of the circuit the first time the damper actuates. From that point on, current is sent and recieved though the two center pins of the plug through the damper proving switch. Jumping these two terminals will cause no harm as far as I am aware because that is exactly what the damper proving switch is doing. This procedure should only be a temporary measure though because the damper should be replaced.

If someone chooses to remove the damper and replace it with a length of pipe, then that is their choice, but if any adverse effects should come about from this, they are also on their own if legalities should arise, mostly due to the equipment being certified with the damper. Leaving the damper housing in place and cutting the blade out of the housing is an unacceptable practice. Hope this helps.

Glenn

Dale

Customer choice

Seems like the issue after everyone agrees to remove them in a safe manner is one of effeciency. Vent dampers do save a bit of money and a bit of fuel, to some customers that is important and they want the damper replaced, to me the customer should be given the choice and since it's their equipment allowed to decide if the replacement or safe removal is right for them.

Unknown

Glenn this is what I have

been passing on to service and installation personnel as a recommended policy on Vent Dampers.

It is my feeling that any alteration to existing equipment should be made with the blessing of the manufacturer. I know that position is not acceptable to everyone but from a legal point of view it is the safe one.

The complaint I get is that vent dampers seem to be a real problem and then after that being able to get the correct damper. The final problem is wiring change overs from one to the other. I have a one page wiring procedure in one of my manuals that addresses the wiring problem.

The ultimate result many times on these is that they may be cicumvented without following safe procedures.

The inspector involved with this situation has taken a stand that no damper will be removed or altered in any way without written permission from the engineering department of the manufacturer. I agree with him whole heartedly.

For those who have posted the procedures that they follow I would be very careful to perhaps review your policy as it relates to legal issues. It only takes one litigation to do you in.

We just had a local plumbing outfit get fined by OSHA for not following proper trenching procedures with the death of one of their employees the end result. The fine was $89,000 seems like an awful small amount for a life.

Safety to me is always the prime issue, too many times efficiency and comfort take precedence over what is safe, that to me is not a good policy.

Unknown

Jim, I would say

that if H.B. Smith showed the damper as part of the required installation then it must be installed. You say it was not shown so I would guess it was not part of the required install. My question is why was it sent with the package or was it actually sent.The alternative with a space problem would be to get written permission from Smith to alter the installation.

Most manufacturers that are using a vent damper are using it with their standing pilot model in order to meet required government efficiency standards while still using a 24 volt standing pilot system.

Joe_30

Had a damper that, unnoticed, began to stop about 2 degrees away from full open. Boiller would not fire. Thought it was everything else but that. Then happened to bump the damper motor housing and the boiler fired off. It took me a day to realize what I did. Then tapped it on 8 times in a row. Empirical research. Cure was a shot of tuner cleaner from Radio Shack into the shaft where it enters motor.

jim lockard

vent

vent damper was shipped with the boiler Tim just never got installed. In all fairness it was a really tight install low ceiling with a 4" cast iron sewer line running about 3" above the flue opening 100 year old building with a leaking dirt basement -u- know the type.
I guess from now on vent damper if shipped will have to get installed --J. Lockard

Unknown

Jim, I understand

sometimes you do not have a choice.