Help with heating choices

Jon Lehberger

I have base board hot water heating system. My current boiler is 37 years old (Thatcher brand). A few parts went (mainly water feeder) and I had a few estimates for the job and it would cost approximately $1,000 to $1,400. For the estimates I received, it seemed that getting a new system would be in my best interest considering the age of the current system.

I just want some guidance on the top brands I should be considering (current estimates for Burnham and Weil Mclane). Also, does anyone have any guidance whether it is better to get a higher efficiency system with the sealed combustion technology or one of the lesser efficient systems with a burner. I understand that the sealed combustion technology seems to result in more repair and higher costs for such repairs. If there is any other guidance that I should consider, would welcome it. Thanks.

Unknown

You could have both

You could have a cast iron boiler with push nipples between the sections, that has regular atmospheric burners running at 3.5 inches manifold pressure (normal test equipment for service), that power vents through the sidewall with 3" stainless pipe, and is Energy Star rated as sealed combustion with a 3" pipe bringing in outside air. The boiler has virtually NO head loss through it, so no special pumping arrangements are needed. It DOESN'T have hot surface ignition, it has spark ignition.

It is the new Slant/Fin VSPH boiler. Natural gas or propane, up to 180,000 BTUH input.

Noel

heretic

Tough to compare

What you are trying to do is apply logic and assemble a comparative cost/benefit analysis.
That's what one does when making a major purchase.
Should be easy enough, right?

Just take:
Boiler A installed cost + Boiler A projected maintenence Costs + Boiler A operating costs.

Compare to Boiler B over some period of time, and make an educated financial decision that meets your needs. Simple, right? Not quite!

The problem is that the only comparative efficiency data that is widely available is a AFUE rating. The closer you look at AFUE, the less meaningful it becomes in the real world. This means that a simple cost/benefit analysis on relative operating costs becomes a futile exercise in speculation.

I do not intend to be a defeatist, but I have tried really hard to assemble meaningful numbers here, and I am convinced it cannot be done. If we could instead get numbers for steady-state boiler operation under a variety of specific static conditions, we could then back in all of the other 'factors' AFUE tries to account for in its single 'one-size-fits-all-heating-appliances' rating. I believe consumers, contractors, and even manufacturers would be better served by this approach. If anyone tells you that you will save X dollars due to an AFUE rating differential, ask them to guarantee it in writing, and back it with dollars!

Sorry, I wish I could give you a more helpful answer.
"In the absence of logic, there is chaos [and politics]."

Radiant Wizard

Boiler Choices

Without a doubt look at a 3-pass boiler design (Buderus, Viessmann, Deditrich, Biasi, Crown Freeport)vs a pin-typed boiler (Burnham, Weil, Slant-Fin, generally any US Boiler).

Boiler is much more efficent in how it use's the produced gross BTU's. It also has much more insulation around the iron and is more flexible when if you desire boiler reset.

Best of luck

BillW@honeywell

There's a lot more to this than just a boiler...

Ask yourself "how long do I plan to live in this house?" If you plan to live there at least 5 years, then calculate the energy savings a new system will provide over your old system, and see when the savings will equal the amount of the new system. You also should look at your house as a system. How good are your windows? How much insulation do you have? How's the roof & attic? Is your house tightly sealed or does it leak in lots of outside air? Is someone home all day? Any special needs like nursery or eldercare rooms? Allergies or other health problems? Get a pro to do a heat loss and/or a blower door test. Visit all the manufacturer and contractor websites and showrooms you can. Remember, this comfort system is a once-in-a-lifetime purchase,usually,and that energy costs are the third largest cost of owning a home after mortgage and taxes, but they are one you can definitely impact with careful research, some relatively simple DIY projects and some professional services. Your comfort system effects your health and well being every day & night. Choose it carefully!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Steady State Rating

Oh you mean a rating system where the "top" IS steady-state? Like what some boilers can now get very close to?

While I bet the forced air manufacturers are working furiously to try to achieve this, they currently seem to be a long way off.

But if that were the standard and furnaces and boilers were both rated on the same scale (as they are now) that would mean forced air would be penalized and people would have a number showing them just how efficient hydronics have become. We can't have that now, can we?

Of course it's well and fine to have a rating system that penalizes the best boilers however...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

If you want to try to do something to get it changed

I would suggest writing to the U.S. Department of Energy.

The DOE makes the studies using ASHRAE data.

ASHRAE appears "responsive" to the desires of the forced air industry but doesn't seem to care about hydronics--at least residentially.

Radiant Wizard

I agree

with what you are saying. But the fact still stands that a 3-pass boiler is far superior to a pin-type boiler. Also the cost between the two is not as far apart as you may think.

Here's an example - A Biasi B10-3 w/Riello Burner with a 40 Gallon Megastor is only $250.00 more than a Burnham V83 with Tankless Coil.

Pat Clark

The Best of Both Worlds

Check with a Burnham Home Heating Team Member who can offer you both atmospheric boiler or sealed combustion (Spirit or Revolution). He will also be able to offer you a 5 or 10 year Parts & Labor Warranty that can cover the boiler, AND also external components replaced at the same time (ie: zone valves, water feed, exp tank, t-stats). This will provide even more savings than the efficiency savings.

Pat

Unknown

I don't agree with FAR superior

Condensing in a boiler occurs at 117° metal temperature, Wiz, regardless of which iron it is. PERIOD.

Pin type boilers can achieve 300 degree stack temps with steady state efficiencies right on the edge of condensing.

The last time you posted this comparison, you used a Liberty boiler, which is a steam boiler that also is used as a water boiler. Unless your boiler is a steam boiler, too, please use our water boiler for comparisons, the XL 30H. That would be more fair.

I certainly don't buy the fact that European boilers don't condense. That's just rubbish.

That leaves the insulation. Far superior, I agree. That's very important on those jobs where the boiler is OUTSIDE the heated structure. How do you heat the space that the boiler is in? Normally, the boiler is the scource of heat.

Wouldn't you agree?

Please slander in a little less bitter tone, Wiz.

By the way, how's the job hunting going? Hope you find something.

Noel

Jack_5

Reasons to consider the Monitor MZ

The MZ is a wall hung, sealed combustion, fully condensing unit with a 316 L stainless steel heat exchanger. With its efficency at 92 to 95%, the MZ has a payback period, i.e. it will pay for itself with fuel savings over a few years, depending upon your present heating situation and gas bills.
Please visit us at www.mzboiler.com.
Jack Dudrick
MPI

heretic

DOE

Yes, I'm sure the DOE would be very responsive to my concerns...

"Bureaucracy is the epoxy that greases the wheels of progress." -Dr. Jim Boren

Mark Wolff

Boiler Choices

Jon the first thing you need to do is compare contractors unless you plan on installing this yourself. Each contractor will have their personal preference on boilers, and despite the bickering you see in some of these responses, there really is no bad choice in boilers as long as you are comparing Burnham and Weil-McLain (I can already see the hate mail being typed!). Find a good contractor and see which of the two they prefer. And yes, atmospheric vented boilers are fine, and like you said, cheaper to be worked on.

Steve Eayrs

The only place your monitor will run down to condesate temp. is in the lab, under controled return temp.'s, or in that odd seldom cycle that rarely happens. After all there are really no controls on it help it condesate on any kind of regular basis. They sell for about the same price as a Vitodens, but don't have anything for good controls on it.


There is no reason to go with a boiler that can condesate, unless you have some decent controls (and associated piping) to make it condesate, on as regular a basis as possible.


Steve

Floyd_5

The BEST boiler...

is the one with the BEST network of people that are standing behind it.....
For me, that is the Weil... I have had Weil GV boilers that have been hammered in industrial applications that I would have never thought they could hold up to......
The new Ultra seems to be following in the same foot steps, however it is kinda soon to say for sure... however I have and am installing some more in some "torture chambers" to see what they will do.
The BEST thing though is that I have a couple of great dealers that I can get great service from and...like I did today, I can cal right to the factory and get a live person to call me back and give me straight answers to questions that I ask about things that aren't even public knowledge or even know to all of their field people yet....that to me is worth alot!!!

The best boiler in the world in the hands of an ignorant person...ain't worth crap......