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Radiant problems, Please HELP.
Tom Towne
Member Posts: 25
Hello Guys
I have a major problem with my new heating system from Radiantec. Here are some facts.
1)New construction 1680 sf Log home cape with cathedral celing. 1008 SF floor area. Using Radiantec open direct
system.
2)1 zone, one pump, Bradford & White 65,000BTU 50gal water heater.
3) 7/8 tubing 16 o.c. with aluminium plates run under entire length of tubing except for corners obviously.
4) reflective foil underneath tubing then r13 insulation.
5) all exposed tubing has been wrapped.
6) All major air leaks have been addressed.
Now the problem! at 25 deg. outside temp this set up will not heat the house above 62deg!!!!
1) the water heater is working Great!
2) After heater is done cycling on the temps go out at 150deg and then back in at 143 when the return gets down to 125 the heater comes back on.
3) I spoke to radiantec and they said I must have a high heat loss somewhere but this is not the case. I will agree that the house is not completey "air tight" but it has no major heat loss.
4) local heating contractor says I need more tubing and that they have never seen a system using 7/8id tubing at 16oc. He says they always use 1/2 tubing at 8oc without any problems.
5) keep in mind that we are not mooved in yet so there is not even any water consumption yet.
Any opinions or advise is very welcome. Thanks.
I have a major problem with my new heating system from Radiantec. Here are some facts.
1)New construction 1680 sf Log home cape with cathedral celing. 1008 SF floor area. Using Radiantec open direct
system.
2)1 zone, one pump, Bradford & White 65,000BTU 50gal water heater.
3) 7/8 tubing 16 o.c. with aluminium plates run under entire length of tubing except for corners obviously.
4) reflective foil underneath tubing then r13 insulation.
5) all exposed tubing has been wrapped.
6) All major air leaks have been addressed.
Now the problem! at 25 deg. outside temp this set up will not heat the house above 62deg!!!!
1) the water heater is working Great!
2) After heater is done cycling on the temps go out at 150deg and then back in at 143 when the return gets down to 125 the heater comes back on.
3) I spoke to radiantec and they said I must have a high heat loss somewhere but this is not the case. I will agree that the house is not completey "air tight" but it has no major heat loss.
4) local heating contractor says I need more tubing and that they have never seen a system using 7/8id tubing at 16oc. He says they always use 1/2 tubing at 8oc without any problems.
5) keep in mind that we are not mooved in yet so there is not even any water consumption yet.
Any opinions or advise is very welcome. Thanks.
0
Comments
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Log homes
can be fairly leaky! Was a heat loss calc done by the manufacture?
Do you have a fireplace? An open damper can be quite a heat loss point, as are any exhaust fans in bathrooms and kitchens. Recessed can lights are another major heatloss area.
The infiltration is what kills you on log construction. Be interesting to know what they used in the calc for this factor.
The only way to know infiltration for certain is to have a blower door test done. With this they pressurize your building and get data on how much leakage you have. Generally they can show you the leak areas with a smoke pen.
Many utilities offer this service, or find a contractor with one.
It's not unusual for a log home to need supplemental heat, as the floor alone cannot provide enough BTU's. Floor coverings are something to watch, carpet and pad really puts a damper on radiant floor output!
Again an accurate heat loss calc would show all this.
hot rod
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
What has
Radiantec said about this?
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Hot Rod
Thanks. No Fireplace. Yea, they did a generic heat loss calc. based on insulation and SF alone. My issue is that the floor is not getting very warm. Take for example the downstairs bedroom. This room is only 13X15, carpeted and can only get it to 62deg with door closed. Shouldnt the floor get warm and that room heat up if the door is closed?0 -
how long....
is each loop? This is not one long piece of tubing is it? Are there several loops of of a manifold? Man could this be a mess....kpc0 -
Sorry, I forgot to mention that there are four equal loops at approx 200ft each. Each loop has ball valves at beginning and end. All lines are free of air.0 -
what is the floor....
temp? and floor covering? The best thing to do is start off with the heat loss and work from there.kpc0 -
With carpet on the top side...
your maybe getting 5000 btu outa each loop, that's only 20,000 for the the whole system....won't heat much of a house!
By doing some quick calcs. on my hydronic circuit simulator... belive it or not you can darn near double your output by going to 8" and the 3/4 tubing is actually gaining you very little over what 1/2 would have done.
Anyway... your short on tubing... the hot water heater is cycling, so yougots enough heat just not enough emmiter!!!!
That is proven also by the low temp drops you are seeing between the supply and return.
Sorry you got took by the ever present "you can do it yourself" internet fiasco......
Hire your local contractor and pay him whatever he asks to fix you up!!!! After all you can find his butt and chew on it if it don't work!!!!
Good luck, finding a butt to chew on with what you got there!!
Sorry to rant about the internet experts, but I just could not help it.... it just p****es me off to see people get had like that!!!0 -
Did you
contact radiantec about this?
You paid for the design sir, if it doesn't work than they are liable.
Why did you choose them? Did you get bids from local contractors? Did you feel confident in Radiantecs ability?
Did you install the system EXACTLY as they designed?
You are asking us for answers that should be coming from Radiantec.
Your local guy is right, 16 oc installs are a Radiantec trademark.
You need to find a contractor that actually does this for a living. A real, live, human. Not a web site.
Sorry for your inconvenience.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
I........
hate to be the bearer of bad news but the system as installed will never work properly.You may be able to salvage what is there and add more tubing to make it work,but only a heat loss and a experienced proffesional can make that determination after viewing the site conditions.Try the find a contractor feature on this site.
John0 -
Now You Come
to the professionals. I think you asked the right people a little to late. You tried (atleast you thought) to save some bucks and dabble in an art. You like others have found out that interent radiant providers are just that they provide material not the no-how or knowledge that it takes to install a system.
I don't feel your pain and us professionals here should be charging you for the craft that you didn't want in the beginning.0 -
Still, log
construction needs special attention when calcing infiltration. A generic calc may not go far enough.
I'm not a fan of combined system, I think this is what you have. If you need dhw and heat, you may fall short! Not to mention potential health risks.
1600 SF times 30 BTU/ sq. foot (not uncommon for log construction) is 48,000 BTU/hr. just for heat. Pushing the limit of that tank, depending on the efficiency.
How will it perform in zero or below temperatures, if it is struggling now!
If the supplier new of the construction method, and the home was built as the plans showed, seems they should stand behind the performance, or lack of!
hot rod
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Down, Boy.
I'm sure this gentleman feels bad enough already. I'll bet he will tell everyone he knows about the company he has dealt with. We certainly don't need to trash them here since they do a good enough job of that themselves.
I have attempted more than a few things myself which ultimately cost me serious money to repair what I erroneously attempted to do. I'm sure we all have been in this fellow's position so let's find him a real professional to bail him out of this mess.
hb
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Heatboy
Why? How many posts have I read here concerning this issue? A hundred. Time after time there have been those here who have moaned and groaned on how their knowledge is worth a dollar bill.
This is a typical example of someone whom thought that the craft of radiant wasn't a craft and why should I pay a "Professional" x amount of dollars when I could save a buck. Well he saved a buck, so why should he get FREE advice. Isn't that what he didn't want in the beginning. A professional.
If this installed by a professional don't you think he would be on the phone demanding for that installer to get his butt down there and fix it. So let him go to Vermont and make them fix it.
I'm sorry if I'm offending this person or other professionals here but he got what he deserved.0 -
My thoughts
Radiantec does a fine job of marketing, far better than most contractors do, which is why they're able to attract so many homeowners.
This fellow has had a bad experience, and now he's seeking help from the pros. My guess is that he'll hook-up with one of the Wallies, probably one that has a display in Find a Professional (marketing attracts customers, right?) and he'll get the problem fixed. That's good. Others (about 3,400 people per day now) will read this thread and make a decision as to who they'll deal with in the future. That's also good.
Are there lessons to be learned here? Yep, and for more than one person.Retired and loving it.0 -
Thanks to all for your time and consideration.0 -
Some people just want to do it themselves.
It's not against the law, is it? As a contractor who works with DIYers often, I realize that no matter what, these clients are going to try it themselves. If I don't help them, they will go elsewhere. Of that, I am sure. So, I make money doing the design and selling them equipment, plus they have the added advantage of having me on site to guide them or perform work, such as controls, that may be out of their comfort range.
Maybe this gentleman doesn't have anyone near him he trusts. And maybe, he thought professional prices were either ridiculous or simply out of reach. Since we don't know, we must give him the benefit of the doubt. He is going to learn a valuable and very expensive lesson here. Piling on isn't going to help him recifty the issues he has. Professionalism will.
DIYers are always going to be with us and they watch here daily. I, for one, don't want to alienate them. I would rather make money from them and help them through all of the hype the Internet has to offer.
Humbly,
hb
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Tom: I'd start digging on their website and any "agreements" you may have entered with them. While I suspect that it completely "buyer beware" you or your attorney might be able to find a way to at least receive a refund for the materials you purchased.
Is there any difference in the system itself between carpeted and non-carpeted floors?0 -
One more comment.
Tom is a guest here at HeatingHelp.com, just as everyone else is. He is deserving of courtesy. Thank you.Retired and loving it.0 -
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radiantec heating system
I installed 2 of their systems last year. Both in rental apts.
One works fine. It was really well insulated. We used 1/2 pex 8 inches on center. Then a couple inches air, fiberglass 19 I think, and a vapor barrier. We are running around 850 sq feet off a burnham RV4 boiler and through a flatpack heat exchanger for the radiant. We also obtain the domestic water off a super store on a separate zone.
Second application we couldn't get it hot enough. Installtion was similar except a different & larger boiler. We didn't take into account that we had insulation in the old house. AND there were 3 layers of flooring. We added some baseboard heat to suppliment it.
You have to know the required btus for the building. Radiant is only something like 30 per sq foot. Multiply the sq feet times 30 or whatever that number is and that is the total btus that you are putting out. How many btus were you told you needed? If the numbers don't add up then you will need more btus.
You didn't mention what the temp of the floor is.?
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radiantec heating system
I installed 2 of their systems last year. Both in rental apts.
One works fine. It was really well insulated. We used 1/2 pex 8 inches on center. Then a couple inches air, fiberglass 19 I think, and a vapor barrier. We are running around 850 sq feet off a burnham RV4 boiler and through a flatpack heat exchanger for the radiant. We also obtain the domestic water off a super store on a separate zone.
Second application we couldn't get it hot enough. Installtion was similar except a different & larger boiler. We didn't take into account that we had insuffient insulation in the old house. AND there were 3 layers of flooring. We added some baseboard heat to suppliment it.
You have to know the required btus for the building. Radiant is only something like 30 per sq foot. Multiply the sq feet times 30 or whatever that number is and that is the total btus that you are putting out. How many btus were you told you needed? If the numbers don't add up then you will need more btus.
You didn't mention - what the temp of the floor is.?
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Thanks for the edit
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Radiant Tubing
I've never been fond of water heaters being used for household heating, but that aside...
With 16" oc staple up, you won't be able to heat the floor adequately with your low water temperature. 8" oc would allow a lower water temperature, but until the system can be modified by a competent heating professional (look at Find a Professional on this website) you're kinda out of luck.
Also, just for reference in case it isn't there, you need to insulate in the joist spaces below the tubing, R-19 should be satisfactory. If it is an unfinished space below your floor, try putting something else under the floor also, for instance 1"-2" blueboard foam insulation. The key to all this is trying to make the heat go up, not down. Before you laugh, 15% of the heat loss in a house is through the floor. If you leave those spaces open, you'll never make enough heat.0 -
7F temp differential?
if I understood right, 150F out of tank, 143F returning.
7F temp differential doesn't sound like much in 200Ft of tubing? especially 16"oc. plus the floors do not feel warm seem to point to poor heat transfer. of course the idea is to heat with low temp water, so the more water you have underneath the better. the water is doing all the work. more water more work. more water, lower water temps. after all, tubing is not that expensive when looking at the entire heating project. put in more tubing!
if the floor doesn't feel warm, you have poor heat transfer or heat is going in the wrong direction, remember you are standing on the radiator. even with poor insulation, drafts and cool room temps floor would still feel warm if you are putting heat into it, unless its poorly insulated below.
assuming this is an unheated crawl space, between the 140F disfuser plate and the 25F outside temp, I would think R11 with a 115F temp differential is way inadequate. i would suguest r25.
mark is right, keep this forum purely technical, sorry for non-tech remark earlier.
I estimated 18.5 gals in the floor. 7F temp difference, approxi 1,000btu at any given moment.
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Impressed
Poor fellow really couldn't know he was stepping into the mother of all controversies by mentioning the R word here.
I was impressed that this many folks set their strong opinions aside this time, and attempted to offer up technical help. Some prior visitors in the same situation have gotten much uglier treatment.
Hey, things are looking brighter on the board...0 -
so, what are you driving at coreys?0 -
Wizard Reply
1) Most of us learn by doing and from our mistakes
2)If you are against FREE advice and expect to charge for it then why do you frequent the Wall? Do you pay for any advice you pick up or any knowledge you gain from job pictures that are posted?
3)If you are a contractor as I am I hope that you treat your customers much differently thaan this because your attitude here is far short of PROFESSIONAL!0 -
Tom....Just a thought. About two years ago we had a similar situation here in RI.The customer puchased and installed the system himself,7/8 tubing, 16" o.c. When it was finished, the house wouldn't get over 62*. The problem was the water heater didn't have the recovery rate needed. We installed a Buderus boiler with a flat plate heat exchanger (the tubing had no oxygen barrier) and the system has been fine ever since.0 -
Tom, You mentioned way back that you have not even used the domestic hot water yet.
Made me wonder if this system has a heat exchanger in it? If not then its most likely not legal. You cannot mix the domestic and heat system in most places I know of.
Besides the lack of enough tubing to heat the house, and maybe the water heater being too small too, you may also have a possible health problem, without a heat exchanger, between the two systems.
I believe you have a few different choises.
- One is to get these guys to stand behind what they design. (this may take a lot more money and time than most want to spend) I personally believe they count on most people backing down.
- The second is forget them and find someone who can get this thing straightened out for you. Their must be a radaint heating pro in your area somewhere.
Most people on this site have real jobs that keep them real busy, doing this stuff full-time. I do too, but find it a good diversion from normal life. (I really should be finishing the bids/bills in front of me, since thats why I am staying late in the office tonight)
Steve
0 -
RTI
as opposed to Radiantec.
You may be confusing the two.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Radiant problems, Please HELP.
Hello guys. I have been responding to most your replys over regular e-mail as things can get cluttered on these boards. I now have a very informative local contractor working on the whole ordeal. I will be speaking to him about the blower door heat loss analisis as well as possible solutions tonight. Thanks again for the replys.0 -
Floor heating problem
I have A custamer that has his 1/2 inch tubing sandwitched between 1 1/2 inch of wood on the botom reflective bubble wrap tubing between straping 1/2 inch plywood 3/4 maple flooring.how can I get some heat out of this floor.0 -
It has happened
before, the confusion when we were Radiant Technology
Alot of people just shorten it - Radiant Tech.
Now we are RTI Pex Piping Systems.
Dave H.
Dave Holdorf
Technical Training Manager - East
Taco Comfort Solutions
0 -
Radiantech
Holohans right. When you open a DIY magazine , sooner or later you run into a very impreesive add that makes radiant sound easy. A wonderful warm room that a the DIY er can point to his (Or Her) friends and say "We did it ourselves". The adds written to appeal to the DIY Guys (like myself) unsurpressable urge to try anything once. I know because I made the call to radintech. I have a room that doesnt have a radiator and this sounded like the ticket. Withen about ten minutes The guy was ready to send me everything I needed for about $800.The whole deal sounded great but began to fall apart when I asked questions based upon what I have learned from you guys on this site. I was concerned about the different water temps reqiured by the two different systems (radiators and the radient)and how they would effect my boiler ( or floor) if I did not mix them right. I asked if my boiler warrenty might be effected . The more I asked the more I realized was not being considered. People try this stuff not beacuse they wake up and decide to install a radient floor , they are often driven by some pretty convincing marketing. Had I not asked questions based upon my education on the Wall I would probaly be in the same boat. The Moral of the story is keep telling the story because it helps sombody evertime its told.
Thanks again
Dan0 -
Vernon
No I don't charge for my knowledge and I do share it with other people here.
While I will apologize for maybe coming over too strong I will stick to my point. If you desire to dabble in our craft to save a buck because you thought that it wasn't worth the price of the professional then when you need us pay for us.0 -
Hello all
Here is the scoop. I visited with a very knowlegable and honest contractor today. He explained my heat loss analysis (ACCA manual J HVAC computer systems Ltd.) which showed a total heat loss of 39,018 BTU, sensible gain of 24,088, Latent gain of 3,072 and total heat gain of 27,160. Suprisingly he said that I need not add more tubing. He suggested that
1)I will not benifit for my dollar by adding tubing to the radiant system as it is near it's potential. The current setup would be left in and used as a constant flow system.
2)I remove the r13 insulation and place double foil sided buble wrap completly under the floor and tape up all seams and insulate the rim joists. Apparently this is where my installation is failing and the floor temps would go up to 80-85 by doing this. would there be agreement here?
3)I add a type of radiator that has a small blower and that can be concealed. This would be installed in the upstairs bedroom as well as under the kitchen counter. I believe he said these things put out around 20,000 btu.
4) The basement propane space heater be left only for emergency as it adds moisture to the basement.
5) The basement and downstairs bedroom get baseboard supplement.
6) This system would use the small Munchkin boiler. I believe it has a 50,000 max BTU. The water heater would be changed over to DHW use only.
Thoughts opinions??? Need more info?? Thanks guys.
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Oh yea,
The bad news. He says Munchkin delivery would be 4-6wks so I have to somehow hobble along on the water heater until then. The good news is I believe he is an honest man.0 -
\"basement propane space heater...\"???
Don't know what the codes are where you live, but hereabouts propane appliances are NEVER installed in the basement. Propane, unlike natural gas, is heavier than air. A little leak, a source of ignition, and you won't have any trouble keeping your house warm - for a few seconds.
Also, if that "basement propane space heater" adds moisture to the air, one would have to assume that it is not vented outside. If that is the case, you really need to read the thread "CO again".0 -
He sounds like he's done his homework.
> Oh yea,
>
> The bad news. He says Munchkin
> delivery would be 4-6wks so I have to somehow
> hobble along on the water heater until then. The
> good news is I believe he is an honest man.
0 -
He sounds like he's done his homework.
You're lucky to find him. The plan sounds feasable.
Noel0
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