A critique wanted! (PAH)

Dave Yates (PAH)

Thanks in advance

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Floyd_5

Dave

Why would'nt you pull the indirect and the rads before the panels for the radiant??? Don't you want to pull the hottest water for the zones that need the hotter water?

Other than that... Looks Great!!!

Happy munching!!!

Unknown

WRONG!!! ALL WRONG

> Thanks in advance

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*To catch up with me in real time, use AOL's Instant Messanger. My user name is: Radiantfloors
Add me to your buddy list. I've got a bunch of Wallies on my list.

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bigugh_4

Just a frost question ?


What about the frost line in the ground ? &, Protection of the vents exiting the ground. from kids and mowers and such. Not to mention a very deep snow ? buring the vents?
just wondering ?
bigugh

Unknown

WRONG. WRONG!!! ALL WRONG.

Just kidding Dave:-) I like your proposed PVC stand idea. HTP should have something like that as a factory accessory as well as some sort of wall mounted platform. Why should we, the installers have to be the ones to have to get creative just to make the installation work and look like it grew there?

The design, I've yet to try the Pro-Panel so I can't say whether or not they should be first in line or not. From what I understand, Hi temp stuff goes first off supply header. I think you taught me that in an RPA seminar in Utah. You allready know that. I'm definately missing something here.

The radiant manifolds going to be your (master) zone? If so, you might be using them for constant circ. The hi-temp convectors and panel radiation could be their (slaves) too.

Why the 2' long traps? Do you feel they really need to be THAT LONG? I hate ghosting and have allways used 12-18" max. I've heard of (hr) seeing thermo siphons jump more than a 4 foot trap though. I just don't get it. Those circulators going to have IFC option? If so, I wonder if traps are needed at all? It is best to pull your close spaced tee's off the bottom so why not just keep them and I'll shut up now.

No low water cut-off? Munchkin MUST come with one under the hood right?

Love the CAD detail. Nice design work PAH. Just curious, why did you choose the HTP over the competition for this setup? You need a modulating burner here?

Gary (HeatGeek) Wallace


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John Abbott

He

> What about the frost line in the ground ? &,

> Protection of the vents exiting the ground. from

> kids and mowers and such. Not to mention a very

> deep snow ? buring the vents? just wondering ?

> bigugh

John Abbott

Hey Dave,

I agree with Floyd on the indirect and would also add the radiators if they are hi temp.Also why are you not pumping away from the expansion tank on the primary loop?You save a lot of waste heat(in the off season) from the primary secondary piping by seperating the domestic and using flow checks on the heating loops so you don't get a reverse flow.

John

ScottMP

Looks good Dave

What is the design for the Runtals that they need a lower temp ?

Are they constant circ ?

The venting would make me nervous around our parts. How will the condensate handle the cold ?

Scott

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Answer me these questions three!

Floyd - I almost did and normally do, but the ProPanels are both injection mixing panels and the Vision 1 control lets me treat the indirect as a priority zone. The ProPanels have 1.25" straight-through supply and return lines. I liked the look of having them next in line.

Bigugh - Thanks for pointing out that I'd missed the 3' burial dimension above the highest horizontal point of the vent lines! It pays to have extra eyes(G).

John - Good questions & keen observations. The radiators are the "target zone temperature" for the Vision 1 contol, which gives them full outdoor reset. The Munch needs to see adequate pressure or it'll lock out as if seeing a low water condition. Return mounted pumps go against my grain, but that's what HTP says is needed. The exp tnk ends up on the supply by default due to the spirovent and also ensures the Munch will see an increase in pressure when the pump runs. My primary loop is full size and fairly short, so I don't expect the rise to be a relief vlv rocking problem. Waste heat won't be a big issue once the primary gets insulated. Reverse flow shouldn't raise its ugly head with closely spaced T's. Hasn't in the past, so a knock on wood is included(G).

Gary - I wasn't sure how that'd look, so I tried it out at home first - gotta love the family cause they let me tinker with their indoor comfort constantly(G). See my R2D3 post! (See Floyd's answer for your second question.) The rads are the target temp zone & the ProPanels injection, so their incoming temp doesn't matter - they'll adapt themselves! The indirect is a priority zone. No IFC here! We've always given the heat traps a few extra inches and haven't (yet) seen ghost flow. If we do, an IFC model can be retro'd in a heartbeat. Under the hood is correct. Not CAD - it's MS Paint. The Munchkin venter motor is robust enough to handle the long venting required to get away fronm the home, which has windows about every two feet around its perimeter. The modulating input eliminates (or nearly so) short cycling, which should extend the life of all components. T's looking straight down don't allow air to transfer into the secondary zones. I always try to think like air when piping hydronics, which eliminates all but one air elimination device (normally).

Scott - The Runtals were sized to work at the same temp as the Wirsbo QT & will be located on the same secondary loop (the ProPanel has its own by-pass PRV, so multiple remote manifolds utilizing similar temps will each have its own Wirsbo 1" zone vlv - one pair of S&R lines per each manifold gang!). Nearly constant, at least for the radiators & they're the target zone. They'll be burried below frost line and the nearly constant run time will keep a zone of warmed earth around the exhaust line's run. Condensate should be fairly productive!

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hr

My thoughts

Run the whole assembly through Siggys buffer tank program. Be interesting to see if a buffer tank would help the cycling and control.

The PVC stand is clever! Will it go ther long run? Seems PVC exposed to light or UV gets brittle after a while. A buffer tank below could serve as a stand. Or there are a bunch of water heater stands available off the shelf. I think Gorilla rack is one that Graingers carries. Sturdy, quick, and inexpensive.

I haven't had good luck with thermal drops. In concept, and on paper, they look good. But I have had to go back on a few jobs and add checks, even on one 6 foot deep drop! Think I would start out with check pumps. Why risk a call back for the few bucks difference? Grundfos 15-58 would be my choice.

Check into the Insulseal product for that underground venting. It comes ready to glue and bury! www.insulseal.com

I like the whole emitter mix concept, and the clear drawings. Should be a very comfy and efficient system for the owners.

hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

stand

Thanks HR

The PVC stand is amazingly sturdy and the stress is almost 100% vertical & the 3" is on its end. I looked at water heater stands, but don't like a round stand under a square boiler and I liked the notion of free access to the condensate drain. The inverted 2" PVC caps ensure the legs are centered and secure from slipping out from under the boiler. A chop saw speeds up the cutting process and the only joints glued are the 1.5" lines joining the T's.

For whatever reason, we have yet to experience ghost flow in our systems (must be the heavier east coast water). There's always that first time though & the IFC circs will be a quick retro-fit if needed.

I have a mix of Grundfos, Taco & B&G pumps in my home's system & like all three. But HTP starts with the Taco and the ProPanels have them too. I like keeping the system as uniform as possible for homeowner eye-candy appeal.

I'm embarrased to say I don't have Siggy's program - yet. Santa - are you listening???

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Dave Yates (PAH)

by request

The remote manifold set up. The ProPanel has built-in by-pass pressure relief, so one set of supply & return lines can grant the use of multiple remote manifolds with each one housing its own zone valve. Saves time, money and materials - both in PEX from the manifolds and multiple feed/return lines.

Scott Milne asked me about drawing fittings & I've attached a drawing showing the progression using MS Paint.

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scrook_2

underground vents

is min 1/4"/foot enough pitch, vs say 1/2"/foot? Also be sure to stay below max frost line of course.

Perhaps use Sch 80 PVC at, least above grade, for better durability? Also Sch 80 for the stand -- same reason?

And as others point out, why not put the 011 after the X-tank on the supply and the rad's and indirect first?

John Abbott

Ain't........

it great 55 years old nearly 40 years in the trades and I still learn something everyday.What a great time to be alive.Thanks Dave.

John

John Abbott

Hey Dave,

You gotta get Siggy's software it is awesome. Also we connect the indirects first off the mains and cross main not closely space tees if you follow me.So that we are limiting the flow through the primary loop during the off season.

John

Dave Yates (PAH)

If it's by Siggy

you know it'll be a biggie! I know it is a must gat for me, but I'm a tardy fellow. All in good time.

As for the indirect, I'd normally do it that way too, but the Munch wants to see correct flow & as a result the primary loop must be run anyway. So..... seemed like fun to place it elsewhere this time. A lark, if you will. Poetic license???

OK, so I've been in the basement all night piping up the new arrival. Playing with P/S piping! The things some folks do for fun(G). You should see the Grundfos gauge on my secondary loop jump when I crank the bypass through the Munch! Adds 7 Lbs of head. That was for bleeding purposes. Under normal operation, the Munch pump primary loop connects via closely spaced T's in the Grundfos secondary loop. The Grundfos and Taco pumps won't even know the other exists! The Burnham Revolution primary injection loop doesn't "see" the others either. I can flip-flop between the two boilers or set them up to work as one or in stages.

Next week I'm adding some additional Danfoss controls with remote monitoring capabilities. Tweaking from outside the home!

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