Ultra Fin

Mike T., Swampeast MO

"I 100 percent agree with your statement of 'Simple to use tools and attention to detail.'"

Radiant Wizard

Ultra Fin

Has anyone used this product and what are your thoughts? Their literature states that you can deliver more heat with a cooler floor compared to other radiant systems but if you look at ther performance test results I don't buy it.

Room Temp 72 Degrees, Water Temp 150 Degrees, Measured BTU Output 27.3 BTU/sqft, Inside Joist Temp 96 Degrees, Floor Temp 81 Degrees.

Room Temp 72 Degrees, Water Temp 180 Degrees, Measured BTU Output 41.6 BTU/sqft, Inside Joist Temp 105 Degrees, Floor Temp 85 Degrees.

Room Temp 60 Degrees, Water Temp 150 Degrees, Measured BTU Output 33.4 BTU/sqft, Inside Joist Temp 85 Degrees, Floor Temp 67 Degrees.

Room Temp 60 Degrees, Water Temp 180 Degrees, Measured BTU Output 46.5 BTU/sqft, Inside Joist Temp 96 Degrees, Floor Temp 71 Degrees.

They don't list at what floor r-value this was taken. If you can only get a floor temp of 81 degrees using 150 degree water what happens when you only need 110 degree water. The water temps that they use seem to be very high at least to me for a radiant job. They also use as a selling point that you need 1/3less tubing than other type radiant systems.

What are your thoughts.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Convection \"oven\" heating

"What happens when you only need 110 degree water?"

Probably ain't gonna' happen because convection would slow greatly and output would drop to the point that little or nothing makes its way into the actual heated space. I really doubt that you could do one of your "no thermostat" installations with this...


"More heat with a cooler floor." I don't doubt that statement. Look at the temps inside the joist bays. More heat transferred from the water all right, but unless some physical law has been shattered, MUCH of it isn't going into the floor--it's going elsewhere like the basement or crawlspace. If they're getting this output from the delta-t at a known flow (as I suspect) they're not lying--just not telling the whole story.

Temps are high. Transmission loss will be significantly greater. Lots of heat going where it probably isn't needed. Insulation would have to be HIGHLY finicky and as absolutely air-tight as possible--not particularly easy in the best of circumstance and certainly not in the type of retrofit applications they say it's good for.

Compared to the type of systems you produce and talk about I think you would be extremely disappointed. The high energy savings you say occur in some? many? all? of your radiant systems would likely evaporate.

Radiant Wizard

I agree

I wouldn't use this product. You might as well do joist heating w/no plates (which I wouldn't do). To answer the question about the 110 degree water. You wouldn't be able to use this application for low water temps. Basically it's fancy baseboard for your joist bays.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not the first time for questions here about Ultra Fin

I have no direct experience, but will be honest and say that's never stopped me from debating/criticizing based on research, application of other experience and facts based on objective understanding.

Some call criticism bad but it really isn't so as long as you do your best to stay objective and are open to changes of opinion based on your own improper understanding.

Others as well have been quite critical of this product but so far nobody has stepped in to debate its merits or to explain the rather puzzling output claims.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Outrageous Claims

Remember: you recently made one yourself.

"Here's the kicker. There is no thermostat in the house. I mean none. The system comes on in the fall and off in the spring and it is the most comfortable house I have ever been in."

Many would question the validity of that statement, I believe. Of those who accepted such as truth, some would believe it based more on "luck" than anything. Others, while believing, might think it too difficult to engineer or confined to a certain type of climate.

Why I believe:

1) I've done it--on a smaller scale but with radically different spaces and radically different methods of heat transfer. I've reproduced it--only once so far, but a larger-scale project is in the planning stage.

2) At least one other (Steve Ebels or Alan Forbes--can't recall which) has reported success and, dare I say, "perfect" comfort with such. Again only within small spaces within a structure, but the same results.

3) A statement you made a few weeks ago: "Radiantly heated structures loose 35% less heat than non-radiant." While I won't say I really agree with that statement, I presume that means you're using about a 35% reduction factor from a CAREFUL Manual-J heat loss calculation to set your curves and design your layouts. With modern, tight construction I suspect that reduction factor is quite close to reality.

4) Based on calculations and observations (the former crude and the latter decidedly subjective) I recently wrote saying I could find no reason why such a system wouldn't work on a MUCH larger scale than just bathrooms or other small spaces.

For those who believe this to be "luck" the evidence is growing. Repeatability has always been the acid test and we don't seem to be talking about "room temperature fusion".

For those who say such is too difficult to engineer I can only say that it only requires SIMPLE-TO-USE tools and ATTENTION TO DETAIL.

For those who say it's climate-dependent... "radiantwizard" is from New England with long, cold and frequently brutal winters; Steve or Alan is in coastal Northern CA where winters are much more moderate; I'm from Southeast Missouri where winters can only be described as HIGHLY variable, week-to-week, month-to-month and year-to-year.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

How could I forget...

...we have Mark Etherton in Colorado high country who DOES have the ability to make quite accurate measurements.

He's busy plugging up the convective holes in his panels after finding that under proportional (dare I say radiative) control that he never needed that much output to begin with...

Radiant Wizard

My statments

are my opinions. While there may be those that don't agree those are also the same people that haven't experienced such systems. Remember, on paper a helicopter wasn't supposed to fly. While you may not totally 100 percent with what I've said you atleast understand and feel there is merit in what I am talking about.

Replys to what you believe.

1) Doing the type of installations that I talked about was based on jobs that I had designed prior to those. Through those jobs I was finding that those systems were acting the same with thermostats. Basically, you could say that I discovered this without trying to achieve that goal.

2) Concerning my statement on 35 percent reduction in heat loss. I do not use Manual-J. I use a ASHREA based program. I found that the reduction in air changes is what get's me to that figure. Doing a baseboard type heat loss I use a .75 while using a .35 for radiant. This is really the only change that I make. I use RTI's EZ Radiant program. I firmly believe in the "Keep it Simple" approach. For those non-believers all I can say is that in 12 years I have never underheated or over heated a space using this.

3) For those that think luck plays the part. Maybe I ran into this with luck but guess what, it's been working for years so luck was the first time now it's experience.

4) I 100 percent agree with your stament of "Simple to use tools and attention to detail."

Unknown

I've used it Joe.

Once I had a ktchen floor dirrectly above my boiler room. I only was experimenting with it. I just suspended Kitec PAP loops (2-pass) in the floor joist cavity, rivited a few onto the tube and stuck the insulation back up there.

My customers didn't pay for it and it was only supplimental or "floor warming" I piped it in series with fin/tube heat emitters @ 170degF

The results,,,,
THEY LOVE IT!!!!!
They want the whole house done with radiant floors now. Just goes to show how easily people are impressed with a warm cozy floor. Ultra Fin works. Not a common product I would make any effort selling. Might save a few linier feet of PAP. But, who really counts that small ft. loss anyway?

If I can make people positive about radiant, I've done my job.

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Dave_16

I\"m with the \"Wiz\"

The "RadWiz" has designed all my radiant systems, and I trust him implicitly, our 1st job was a 900sqft room over a 3 bay garage, the ceilings are all cathedral, and on start up on a 4* day the room was only 1* shy of our desired temp. We keep it simple and pay attention to detail.
"Nobody beats the Wiz!"