Is anyone else having this problem?

Vinnie Smedick

Maybe it's just me. Everytime I figure a load calculation I use my Wrightsoft residential program. Quite honestly the most accurate software I have seen.

Here's my dilema...

The program uses ACCA Manual J for the loads and ACCA Manual D for the duct design. How many other people out here know Manual D? I have used it with much success for the last 8 years. It has taught me alot about sizing ducts by using the available static pressures and subtracting my losses example.. a/c coil, registers,ductwork and dampers. As well as keeping the velocity's at the recommended ratings for residential work 900fpm supply and 700 fpm return.

How many jobs have you guys seen with inadequate ductwork? I spend all this time estimating the job and selecting the equipment to correctly size the job and then get told by my prospective customer two things..

1. The other guy said I don't need all those registers and you are wrong about my furnace not having enough available static pressure to blow through my a/c coil,through all my ductwork that runs across the basement to get to the chase,up the chase and splits across my attic to feed my second floors grills. He said he's done so many houses and they work just fine. He said you don't know what you are talking about.

2. He's a lot cheaper than you.

I wonder why? Oh... could it be that I am buying more ducts, registers and insulation for my jobs? Could it be that it takes longer to install the system correctly? Am I just an idiot? Why do I waste my time reading material and learning how to master my trade?

It's very disheartening! My best customers are the ones whose heating and air conditioning systems I have re-installed,the people who take the time to listen to what I am saying and the ones who have done more research than me! I don't just talk I show them in black and white. Shouldn't everyone be doing their job right? Does everyone think the engineering data with the equipment and in the register books are just for engineers or "that's what they say but you don't have to do it that way"

All the stuff Dan has written has opened many eyes including my own. I just wish there was a ductwork help.com

Sorry about going on and on. I guess I just want to hear that I am not the only hvac contractor who does sizing by the book. Anyone have any stories to add? Am I wrong?

[Deleted User]

you are not alone

I do the same as you. Stick by your guns, do it right and use those best customers to testimonialize your services. especially if you go and fix someone elses screwups.

I charge extra for replacing on a lost bid to a low baller. Just an aggravation charge...and I get it too. People must learn that these are heating SYSTEMS not appliances.

I feel your pain, but remember education is what they need. Don't give em your details, just a quote and "call me if you have questions."

They'll call. "Why are you so high compared to ABC?" Then you can explain how and why you reached your quote, and what is proper. Tell them it may work without the extra duct/registers etc... but warn them. working and working properly is NOT the same thing.

If you are like me, it was a matter of getting the spiel to sell. Quality is good, but it's only half the battle. The HO has to know why you are better, what he is getting for his $$$.

If yu have the best and nobody knows it, then YOU have the best. BUT you DON'T want it...you want to sell it. Done right you can do better and make more on fewer jobs, and your reputation will go.

Best of luck.

Vinnie Smedick

Thanks for the words Mike. It gets you down sometimes and you need a pat on the back, to remember why you do this.

I do care more about my reputation more than my wallet but sometimes I wonder about that, you know what I mean?

flange

you are doing it correctly. you will not get every job, but you should be able to sell yourself and your process to higher end customers. there are those that only shop price, but are they the ones you want? once you get satisfied customers, thats the best advertising. the lowballers will not get the same quality job and they will find it out.

Ted_9

It feels great when a customer says "wow, the other guy took 20 minutes and said I need a 5 ton (Goodman) for my colonial (2000-sq. foot) house."

They appreciate that you take an hour or more to measure the house and go into details.

Thats just my method.

I know I dont want to do work for someone who doesnt care about what is being installed and a quality job.

RichW

quality

Yo Vinnie, keep on keepin' on. My bosses cousin is head of intallations. He uses the finger method for sizing boilers that Dan talks about. I'm still looking for that perfect place to work. Nobody here in West Michigan seems to care if you're NATE certified.

S Davis

It's not just you.

I don't do forced air I specialize in Boiler/Radiant Floor Heating and run into the same thing, I allways do a room by room heat loss on every bid, design my piping/mixing system all before I give someone a price, depending on the size of the project it can take 4-8 hours and then to have the customer say pretty much what you just said.
But what else can you do? in order to be a professional in any trade you need to do a design based on a accurate calculations it is in your and the customers best interest.
And no I don't get all the jobs I bid but then again I do keep the customers That I do get happy because their systems are designed and operate properly.
The people that will not listen to sound design advise you don't want for customers anyway.
So hang in there your not alone.

S Davis

clammy

i feel your pain

I've been in the hvac buissiness for 20 years in the past i worked for companies that where around awhile .I learned from these old timers and what i didn't learn from them i learned by looking .Sizing your ducts and registers correctly and your equiptment right doesn't always get you the job in my area there are so many hacks and butchers it ain't funny i don't service any newer residental that i my self didn't install just to much garbage and every body talks a good game till you see there work then the excuse list or not enough money story comes out.I stopped looking at jobs with refferences and i up front ask if there shopping price if so you don't want me i tell up front that my price is going to be higher then everybodies but there will be no extra costs and no promblems and that all there work be will clean and neat no dirt and a extremme low level of dust and if there refrells they know the deal.I don't do any new a/c work besides some commerical but mostly old er residental stuff complete and retro stuff.As told to me years ago the sweeten of a cheaper price is soon forgotn after the bitterness of poor quality.You have to be as choosey about your clientes as they are of us ,in the past 2 1/2 i've raised my prices higher i lose alot of jobs to low bids but all the ones i got totally made up for the one i lost and they where done right ,as i charged more i seemed to get more work kinda weeded out those tire kickers good luck and don,t let'em grind ya down stick to your guns peace

russ b.

lonely at the top

as it was explained to me at an air balancing certification course:if you perform a proper load calculation and know how many btu's are needed per room and the proper cfm's to supply those btu's then you should set yourself apart from the guys who just blow all the air from their mouths or their other orifaces.MEASURE and BALANCE the system upon start up with the proper equipment.this is the only true way to prove to the customer that the 3 ton system he just purchased is truely giving him the full 3 tons.it doesn't get any more professional than that!not only do you design the proper system for your client but you can prove to him why he chose you was value for the $$$.also can prove to a prospective client why he needs to replace his undersized ductwork before he puts a new system on it!best of sucess to you all this season. RUSS

Vinnie Smedick

I thank everyone who responded

All you guys have given me the inspiration not to give in. It's funny how what a few people say to you can totally derail the vision you had when you decided to be different from the rest :-)

Thanks again!

Vinnie

Mark Eatherton1

Polished professionalism...

It doesn't get you every job, but it will get you the good ones...

This is from Dans Hot Tech Topics.


If you're a contractor, you may use this (with whatever additions or deletions you'd like) as part of your proposal when you visit with a potential customer. Who knows? It just might help you land the job!


Thanks for all that you do for us.


Dan Holohan


21 things you can expect from us as we begin your job


Thanks for considering us to do the work in your home. We really appreciate the opportunity to serve you. We realize that you’ve probably asked several other companies to bid on this project. They may or may not explain to you what’s going to happen during the time they’re working in your home. We thought we’d take the opportunity to tell you a bit about what you can expect from us.





Having work such as this performed is like having "major surgery" done on your home. It’s not something you do regularly and you probably have concerns about what’s going to happen. We’ll go over the details of the actual installation with you further and in person before we start the work. Most of all, we want you to be comfortable with us.

First, we promise not to arrive at your home before 8 AM. We realize that you have to get your family off to school and to work. We promise to work around and respect your schedule. After all, you’re the customer.

When we do arrive at your home we’re not going to make a lot of noise that might disturb your neighbors. We won’t start unloading equipment and dropping it in the street. We won’t shout at each other and we won’t play loud music on the truck’s radio.

We also want you to know that we keep our vehicles in top shape. You won’t be hearing a loud muffler first thing in the morning. We’ll be as quiet as can be. Promise!

We won’t park in your driveway without your permission. We recognize that your driveway is your personal space and we respect that. If we park in the street, we’ll make certain that we don’t leave any dangerous tools or equipment lying around that might present a hazard to your children or to your neighbors’ children.

We’ll cover the walkway up to your home with drop cloths to protect them while we carry equipment in and out. We’ll also cover the floors and stairways in your home that we’ll be walking on as we move between our truck and your job during the day.

If we have to carry out old equipment, we’ll wrap it in plastic first to make sure no debris winds up on your floors. We’ll take great care if we have to move any furniture out of the way to get equipment in and out of your home. And we’ll wipe our feet and make sure we don’t track in mud.

We will, of course, have complete liability and comprehensive insurance coverage when we show up to work at your home. If one of our employees gets injured while on your property, it will not affect your homeowner’s insurance policy. And should we accidentally damage your property (it hasn’t happened yet!) we want you to know that our insurance will cover that damage up to two million dollars. We are a responsible company.

Our professional licenses will be current and the technicians who work in your home will be fully bonded. None of our people will wander into parts of your home where they have no business being.

We have a no-tobacco policy in our company. You can rest assured that none of our people will be smoking or chewing tobacco either in your home or anywhere on your property.

We also have an alcohol-free policy in our company. None of our people will be drinking beer or any other alcoholic beverage during the day – whether they’re in your home or away on a lunch break.

We won’t use your bathroom without your permission. This, too, we recognize as your personal space. If you should decide to give our technicians permission to use your bathroom, we can assure you that they will leave it as clean as they found it.

And we promise not to use your hand towels. We furnish all our employees with hand cleaner and paper towels. They won’t leave a mess.

We won't use your kitchen or bathroom sink or your glassware to get a drink of water. Our employees will bring their own beverages with them, and they won’t leave their empty bottles lying around during the course of the job. We like to keep our work area as neat as possible.

We’ll be planning your job carefully to ensure that your water, heat, and electricity will be off for the shortest possible time, of course. No one likes to be inconvenienced. We recognize that, and we’ll plan accordingly.

And don’t be concerned about our people using your telephone. We’re a modern company and all of our trucks are equipped with two-way radios. Our technicians also carry cellular telephones and beepers. If we need to reach them, we’ll get hold of them in one of those three ways, not by calling them on your home telephone.

And in the same spirit, we promise that our employees will not be receiving any personal calls on your home phone during the time they’re on your job. It's your phone, not ours. We understand and respect that.

We won’t play music while on your job. We’re not the sort of company that shows up with a boom box. We like to work as quietly as possible. If you have small children who take naps during the day, please let us know in the morning and we’ll take care to be especially quiet during those times.

We will not use foul language in your home. Even if we drop something heavy on our toes! We make it our policy to treat your family members with the same respect we would expect others to show toward our family members.

If you have a family pet, we promise to be very careful when we go back and forth to our truck. Many of our people own dogs and cats and we know how quickly a pet can scoot out the door. We're sensitive to that and we'll take great care as we come and go.

When we’re done working we’ll clean up thoroughly and to your satisfaction. We’ll go over the job with you and make sure you’re happy with our work. We’ll take all our trash with us when we leave. If any debris has scrap value, we’ll ask your permission before removing it from the job. We won’t leave any of our refuse in your trashcans.



All in all, we’re going to treat you with the respect you deserve while we’re working in your home. You, after all, are the customer! Thanks again for your consideration. We look forward to serving you in a most professional way

Mark Eatherton1

Another Holohan pearl of wisdom

also from Hot Tech Topics. As Dan says, it pays to wander off the wall...


If you're a contractor, and if you're not the low bidder on every job, you might want to use this letter as a part of your presentation. It will help you tell your story.


Thanks for all that you do for us.


Dan Holohan




Good morning!


Here's my company's proposal. It covers everything we discussed as well as the alternates for the additional work you said you would consider. We're probably not the low bidders on your job, and I want to take a few minutes to explain why.


Most heating contractors buy their materials from a plumbing and heating wholesaler right here in town. We all pay the same prices. Our wholesaler stocks material that falls into the "good," "better" and "best" categories. You'll recall we talked about this when we discussed your job. If one contractor's price is lower than another's, the difference is probably not coming from the cost of the material, unless, of course, the low bidder isn't dealing with a legitimate plumbing and heating wholesaler.


Some low bidders buy their material from a home center. Home centers run sales on "loss leaders" every week. Low bidders see this as a way to shave a few bucks from the cost of the material. You could go to the home center and get the same price on that "loss leader" if you wanted.


We don't buy from the home center. We prefer to get all our material at the plumbing & heating wholesaler because they carry a full line of top-quality, heating equipment, things you can't find at the home center. We support our local wholesaler because they're essential to our ability to give you great service. When we need something special, or an oddball part in a big hurry, these guys will drop what they're doing to service us. The home center won't do that for us, nor will they do it for the low bidder. We've found it pays to develop a good relationship with a full-line supplier.


A customer we'd quoted called us recently for help. He had hired the low bidder to do the original installation, but now they had a problem with the product. Rather than take care of their problem, the low bidder told the customer to call the home center. They tried that, but got a runaround. The contractor told the customer he didn't have time for problems, and besides, how could they expect good service when his price had been so low. We took care of that family, and we charged them a fair price. If you find our price is higher than the low bidder's, make sure they're offering you the same material we discussed. Make sure they're not cutting corners by eliminating items or substituting cheap material. Remember, a car may be a car, but a BMW is very different from a Yugo. Be a wise consumer, and keep in mind, if we're all getting our material from a legitimate source, we're all paying the same price. If there's a wild difference in our price, that difference has to be coming from someplace else.


Maybe the low bidder has simply decided to work for less profit. Maybe he figures he can make it up on volume. We see that business philosophy in a lot of places nowadays.


But the low bidder has to pay the same price for a truck as we do. And gas is no cheaper at his gas station than it is at ours. Quality tools cost money and so does liability insurance, workman's compensation, the cost of clean uniforms, drop cloths and safety equipment. These bills must be paid.


Many low bidders have no idea what their operating costs are. They've never taken a business course, and they live from job to job. As a result, many of them go out of business. If you have a problem a year or so after the installation, there's a good chance the low bidder will be gone, or operating under another name. Either way, you're stuck with the problem.


The difference between our price and the low bidder's has to be coming from someplace. Chances are it's coming from his mechanic's salary. Low bidders usually pay their mechanics less than we do. They have to. After all, they're the low bidders.


Low bidders generally have a tough time attracting skilled craftsmen. Skilled craftsmen earn good wages because they work neatly and quickly and they know exactly what they're doing. We'd send nothing less than a skilled craftsman to work in your home. Would you expect anything less?


Low bidders typically hire people with limited experience. These novice mechanics are willing to work cheaply because they have little or no training. They need on-the-job experience. Unfortunately, they want to get it on your job.


Low bidders don't allow any margin for error. If there's a problem, low bidders return to your home reluctantly and usually because you threatened them. More often than not, you wind up with a patch job, performed by an angry, surly man who resents you, even though you hired him and paid him promptly.


Low bidders usually don't have any sort of support staff. If you call with a question, you get to speak to an answering machine, at worst, or an answering service, at best. Rarely will you get someone who can answer your technical or billing questions competently and on the spot.


Since the low bidder doesn't know his real cost of doing business, he won't set aside money to replace or repair that old truck or those old tools. The result? You're home waiting for him to show up, but he's broken down on the road with no way of getting in touch with you. He has no cell phone. He has no two-way radio. He has no support staff. He's the low bidder. He can't afford these things.


The low bidder sets no money aside for the future. He lives from job to job. He often falls behind on his payments to suppliers. They cut him off and he's forced to make excuses to you. You can't have your new boiler, or furnace, or water heater, or whatever because "the manufacturer didn't ship on time," or "the truck broke down," or "there's a strike at the factory." You'll just have to wait...or you'll have to pay him the full price in advance, and in cash. And don't be surprised if he uses your money to finish his last job, rather than start your job.


The low bidder rarely takes the time to read or do research or attend educational seminars. He's too busy running around trying to make a profit by losing money on each job. He's not really interested in the latest products and technological advances. He has no time to learn new things. He thinks "plain vanilla" is good enough for you. He won't take the time to show you a menu of products, nor will he consider how he can provide you with comfort in the most economical way. He'll just ask what you want, and then give you a low-ball price.


The low bidder may not have a good relationship with the local code officials. Years of cutting corners under various company names have probably made the inspectors wary of this guy. They'll go over his jobs with a fine-tooth comb and often insist he redo things. He'll resent this, and he may ask you for more money after he's started the job. He might even put you in the middle of the argument with the inspector, and perhaps even with the local utility.


And while all this is going on, your heating or plumbing system will be laying dormant. After all, if the low bidder can't afford to do the job right, he certainly can't afford to do the job twice.


We're probably not the low bidders on this job, but I assure you we have given you our best price for the value we offer. And when you need us in the years to come, we'll be there to serve.


Thanks for your consideration

[Deleted User]

I know

I did quote some every expensive homes. you know million $s in the garage and they went the lowest guy....then wonder why it doesn't work right.

Very depressing.

Keep a still upper lip.

Mike