Actual Radiantec customer

Tom Towne

Hello all

I have been reading some of the recent posts From Mr. Star as well as from guys here on the wall with great interest. My name is Tom Towne and I purchaced a kit from Radiantec last fall. While I am mildly satisfied with it at this point it did not go without incident or I likely would never have found this website.

I have 800 ft of 7/8 tubing, 16 O.C. with extra plates ordered so plates are run full length. I completed the instalation for the kit as specified by Radiantec. The documentation provided included a calculation for btu produced at 37,500. The contractor estimated the actual btu produced to be around 14,000.

The heat loss at design temp of -15 was calculated at 39,000 by a blower door test done by the contractor.

Had I known the system would only produce 14,000 btu from the start I would have ordered 5/8 hose and ran it 8in O.C.

Does the system work well for moderate temps 20 and up? yes! Does the system work well for temperatures below 15deg? No! Am I totally unsatisfied with the system? No! Did I need to hire a contractor to come in and finish the project? Yes, with fin tube radiation and toe kick heater additions for an extra $1500. Am I unhappy with the service and inflated BTU estimate? yes. Will I file a complanit with BBB? no

I will also need to purchace a boiler after all because the legoinella issue has me very worried now. I have to thank the guys here on the wall because they were there to help when I needed it.

My guess is that certainly not all but several customers of Radiantec will have similar issues with 16 OC/ 7/8 systems in certain applications.

As for Radiantec, I believe they could be a very good company and likely will have to change the way they do things in the future to have a good reputation. I will say this, Just because BBB is not involved does not always mean customers are satisfied! Most people don't have time!

Tom Towne

Mark Eatherton1

Tom...

be careful in your choice of boilers, Make sure if you use a ferrous boiler that either the tubing has an oxygen barrier, or that a heat exchanger is installed, or an annual chemcial treatment is kept up. Thanks for your opine. And feel free to come back for advice at any time.

ME

Dave Yates (PAH)

some more info

Bed time stories - not!

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=98

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=22

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=17

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=162

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=168

http://www.contractormag.com/articles/column.cfm?columnid=193


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Heatermon

Thank you,

For taking the time to write about your experience with Radaintec. As an installing contractor, I would like to ask a few follow up questions about your experiences. It's projects like yours that we we contractors need to have a better understanding of so that we can sucessfully overcome the "sales pitch" that these "mail order" companies generate.

Question #1: Did you go with Radiantec because there was no contracor or supply house available to you locally?

2. Were you planing on "doing it yourself" from the get go?

3. Was the installation a pleasant experience to you at the time or was it harder and more complicated than you thought?

4. Did you have any issues come up during installation that you had to resolve before continuing and were those issues easily resoved?

5. Where did price come into your purchasing decision? A. Were the contractors bidding on the job too high? B. Was the advertised "low cost" from radiantec a welcome relief?

4. Would you have eliminated radiant from your project if you would have had to pay a contractor to put it in?

5. If you had to rebuild your project today, would you buy your materials from a "mail order" company again? would the company be Radiantec or a different company?

6. What would you suggest us "installing contractors" do differently to win your projects in the future?

Thank you again for your time, I bet your answers will surprise alot of my colleague's here and I look forward to your observations myself.

Heatermon

P.s. If there are any other homeowners who have had experiences with "mail order" radiant heating purchases, please feel free to reply also.


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Weezbo

Some ideas seemed good a long time ago...
a bronze pump ,flat plate heat exchanger and variable speed control on the exixting system depending on where the hot water lines are taken off might be the thing to look into.
if the closest pipe theory was currently in vouge. there are more minor technicalities ,than You ,the home owner wants to know.

Tom Towne

Heatermon

Answers to your questions.

Question #1: Did you go with Radiantec because there was no contracor or supply house available to you locally?

No, I went with Radiantec because I spent a lot of time researching the internet before I started my project

2. Were you planing on "doing it yourself" from the get go?
Yes.

3. Was the installation a pleasant experience to you at the time or was it harder and more complicated than you thought?
Instalation was not easy, but no worse than expected.

4. Did you have any issues come up during installation that you had to resolve before continuing and were those issues easily resoved?
My major issue that came up during the instalation was that a couple different contractors said they had never seen a radiant system that was 16 O.C. and didn't believe it would work properly. I relayed my concerns to Radiantec and the common answer was not to worry it will work fine.



5. Where did price come into your purchasing decision? A. Were the contractors bidding on the job too high? B. Was the advertised "low cost" from radiantec a welcome relief?

Price was never an issue with contractors as I never even quoted any. The advertized price from Radiantec was welcome as I was obviously looking to save as much money as possible. Radiantec's website gave me the confidence that this system was within my reach and it was. Again, my feeling is that 16 O.C. with 7/8 PEX is just not enough emitter.


4. Would you have eliminated radiant from your project if you would have had to pay a contractor to put it in?

No, becaust I would have insisted that I do the instalation of underfloor materials.

5. If you had to rebuild your project today, would you buy your materials from a "mail order" company again? would the company be Radiantec or a different company?

Yes I might buy online again! from Radiantec? no!
My belief is that Radiantec should firmly suggest a contractor come in and do an acurate heat loss then consult homeowner on the correct tubing size and spacing. Then if the homeowner want's to save money on the grunt work i.e. the tubing, plates, radiant barrier, and insulation they can. For the rest, boiler, piping, zone valves & circulators I would have a contractor come in.

6. What would you suggest us "installing contractors" do differently to win your projects in the future?

For the homowner that brings it up, leave open the option to do the time consuming work of the underfloor materials to the homeowner.

Al Rossetto

Radiant heat

All of the problems with the Radiantec system fall back on the excessive heat loss of the building. A staple up system does not produce as much heat as a slab, so it follows that in leakly houses radiant heat is not the right option. There are options out here that produce building shells that make radiant heat shine

eleft(retired)_5

Radiant heat

AL,
Your 100% correct: " There are options out here that produce building shells that make radiant heat shine ".

al

Joannie

Heatloss

But, I would think that a radiant company would accurately size a system....that means knowing the space, including the envelope. Does this company perform heatloss calculations, or just look at the square footage of the space?

Earthfire

Al

What you have stated is correct to a point. The building shell is a very important part of the equation in the design of any heating system, whether its baseboard, radiant, hydro air, scorched air or any combination thereof. The whole thing boils down to the design and execution. And that is the problem that raises the hackels of the dedicated people that have commented on the systems foisted on unsuspecting unkowing customers of the company in question. The "PROS" at this site can walk into a supply house and say give me x feet of pipe and give me y controls and install it and have it work correctly WHY???? Training, more training and experience and more training. The average DIYer does not have the time and energy available to invest in creating a problem free system. They rely on the supplier to give them a design and the correct product to execute the design. Are ALL suppliers and ALL installers qualified to provide the best system possible for funds invested. We all know the answer is no.

That is the frustrating part of doing what you are passionate about. The phone calls that you get: "We bought this heating system for our home and we are too cold, too hot, we spent all our money having something that doesn't work installed and we want you to fix it cause you advocate this stuff, but your too expensive too install it in the first place. But now we want you to fix it CHEAP!! cause we're going to tell everybody we know that that stuff is no good cause it don't work in our house.

I have in the past, and will again, as have most of the other "PROS", worked with DIY homeowners on the design supply and installion of their heating systems. but only after both of us understanding what their objectives for the system are and coming up with an appropriate design. Then they did some or most of the labor on installing the insulation, plates, pipe. In those cases they were able to save themselves some money, and have the satisfaction of having installed it themselves. And I was there to inspect,coach,and adjust if problems or questions came up. And of course, I was compensated fairly for my time and effort on the design and supervision stages as well as the parts of the installation that were my responsibility.

I have the satisfaction of knowing that my clients have a system that deliver comfort at the level of their expectations, and they have the satifaction of having participated in creating their own comfort. By the way most have said that next time they would have me do the whole thing as it wasn't always as easy as they thought.

Selling pipe or controls or boilers is one thing . Providing SAFE, EFFICIENT COMFORT is a whole different ball of wax

Heatermon

Thanks again

For your answers to my questions. Just a few years back, you would have been considered the exception, rather than the rule when it came to typical radiant heating customers. Nowdays, over half of our customers "do their homework" on the net and are better prepared to address the issues related to their proposed systems. They also want to "pitch in" with the project or even (as in your case) do it all themselves. As contractors, we need to develop services tailored to your desires, not ours. Things like heat loss calculations and design assistence are natural services we can provide that will establish relationships for future services like boiler installs and equipment service and replacement. We also need to lobby the code officials, manufacturers and trade associations to develop better standards and requirements for the system's design and installations. I know, most don't want "no stupid engineer's stamp of approval" on every project we undertake, but without codes and standards, we allow this "Wild West" mentality that anything goes.

From what I'm hearing (remember it's just my 2 cents) Radiantec is feeding these starving people because they aren't getting better answers from others, "They drink the sand because they think it's water". As Dan is always telling us, "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king". We need to do a better job of showing these people the light. We need to just keep spreading that light and a hundred years from now, we'll all look back and laugh.

Heatermon

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PJO_5

Heatermon, I'm your \"Mon\"

I first wrote about this in the RPA discussion, and out of respect for Dan did not bring the issue up here. Basically, he was afraid that the mud may fly...which it has to a degree :-) so I didn't jump in with my own experience.

Now that you have directly asked more homeowner opinions...

I wanted radiant heat due to many factors, but the biggest one was probably my six month old son nearly dying from a breathing-related disease that had him in ICU for a week. When I investigated heating systems I ended at radiant. I had baseboard in my previous homes, and had experience with various things involved except direct boiler testing and the related items.

I bought my tubing from Radiantec about six years ago, and argued with them about heatloss and other things. While they were fairly supportive over the phone and were willing to discuss things for a reasonable time, I didn't feel that everything was addressed. I also did not have a wonderful thing like The Wall in my life.

I turned the plates "sideways" and spaced them very close in the higher heatloss areas and carpetted areas of my first floor. I also had a little more insulation than they said was needed.

As we were discussing things with the builder for our home, he let me search for three local contractors for the heating system. Not one visited with me directly but gave me rough estimates by square foot after a second phone call, and one actually gave a "rounded" bid over the phone (that really gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling). My take on it was that they had so much work they didn't need me.

I had two friends; one was an A/C guy and the other a heating tech. and we were talking one day...it was decided that if I could find the radiant end of the supplies and do the design, the three of us - with some additional labor - could do the install of the heat and air over a six week period.

Off I went on the web and trade-type of magazines, etc. I first saw Radiantec in Fine Building magazine. I got all their stuff to read, etc. so I don't need to hear anything from Robert about that...I read it over and over during the course of six months of design/arguing, etc.

I had a heatloss calculation from the builder...based on two zones of FHA. That alone was a learning experience which I have shared in the past, but basically I ended up with a boiler about 20% oversized...but good now with the new addition and piping :-)

I bought the bulk of my heat and A/C stuff from a local supply house through my friend, and got to know them pretty well. While they were not even close to knowing radiant systems they were helpful with the baseboard portion of my system and other stuff.

I never even considered the open system design for my own home due to my experience with water and wastewater systems.
In my opinion, one should NEVER consider mixing these two DIFFERENT waters...and for the cost of a pump and heat exchanger it's a no-brainer.

In a (sort of) defense of the internet-type of systems, I probably would not have radiant in my home if I didn't do it this way. Even with the cost of the upgrades to my system that I did a few months ago, it still is way ahead of what was quoted to me site unseen. The story could be far different today with The Wall and it's good people here - I could see many a contractor doing the things with me as others have mentioned, guiding me as needed, setting the boiler and firing/testing/etc. That is the one part that I will never touch because I am not qualified.

Heatermon, to answer your same questions;
1) I got most of my supplies locally, except the tubing, mixing valve and other fittings. I would say the between the supply house and radiantec my savings were pretty substantial...and I gave my buddy a nice "tip" for his connection and hard work.

2) I wasn't planning on a near-total DIY, but it happened that way. I would have liked to have a guy like you or another Wallie do some of the set-up with me. A tech did the final boiler set-up and firing, and still tests it once a year.

3) The installation was a little more than I thought, but I am a realist...I never did it before and took my time with it. Drove management crazy though (that's my wife) :-)
4) I firmly believe I would have added radiant at a later date to some zones, but I would not have had it in our new home if it was 100% done by a contractor.

5) I probably would not buy from Radiantec again - and won't do any BBB stuff Robert - but have purchased items from another site recently (Pex and fittings).

6) I would suggest if a contractor wants to do this with people, that they have great communication...it's easily the most important thing. This is from both sides by the way, because it's a risk for both sides...and a "win" for both sides.

I may have not found The Wall so soon if it weren't for problems associated with my system, and I reiterate the fact that this is a great place full of knowledgeable and oftentimes passionate people. While I may not command the respect of others (and don't deserve it anyway), I have found it to be a great site for hydronics and other things as well. This is a very polarized subject, and while I may lean to one side I am more than willing to listen to another...

I am glad that this issue is here, although it is a bit "thick" sometimes...let Robert state his case if he has one. If he does have a case for even a portion of his arguement, so be it...if he doesn't, then everyone benefits - including the health of a lot of people trying the open systems.

Hope this helps...I typed it in pieces all day here at work, so I hope it's not too fragmented.

Take Care, PJO

hr

To a point,,Al

the building does drive the heat requirement. Still staple or plates should provide adequate for modern new construction. Easily 20 BTU's per foot can be had from these applications.

The biggest issue with the Radiantec system in slabs is the wide spacing. On concrete or hard surfaces 16" is not a very comfortable design, even if it does meet the load. Low loads and infrequent run times make the striping even more obvious.

I like to tighten to 6" oc for bathrooms for best consistent floor temperature comfort. Heck 16" OC may only leave you with three tubes in small bathrooms!

Sounds like the lighting and cooking, refrigeration gain, etc is enough to warm your house. Throw a party and get enough BTU's from the crowd to warm the place for a week

And 3/4" tube is a bear for DIYers or pros to work with. Four of the Radiantec jobs I have been called in on are problems directly related to the inability to work with large bore tube.

The first frantic call is always for a dozen or so splices. I know, by this request, exactly which system they are installing

Makes me wonder how many get covered with kinks?

hot rod

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Radiant Wizard

Staple Up

I would have to totally disagree with you on this. A slab does not produce more btu's than a staple up application. You may have more of a mass (ie, holds onto the heat longer) but the heat loss of the room and that rooms floor r-value are going to be what dictates the desired btu output per sqft.

The maximum water temp you can run in a slab is about 145 degrees. The maximum you can run in staple up is 160 degrees. Which will put out the most btu's per sqft?

hr

The output

will be driven by the delta t. The floor surface temperature measured against the ambient. I have heard rule of thumb from 1.7 - 2 BTU/sq. ft per degree difference.

So lets say a floor surface temperature of 85° (regardless of the floor covering) with an ambient room of 70°. A 15° delta t times 2 = 30 BTU/ square foot output.

Some manufactures will claim outputs up to 35- 40 BTU/ ft for dry systems or staple up. A bit of a reach, in my opinion. But it depends on the delta T they use to calculate it.

Consider a snowmelt slab sitting in a 30° space can put out 100, 125, maybe 175 BTU/ square foot. Again the Mr. Delta T is in the output "drivers seat"

Seems most homes these days calc out between 15- 20 BTU/ sq ft load. Leaky old homes, loose log, or "glass enders" tend to run much higher numbers.

hot rod

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