RPA censorship

bill clinton_3

Just checked out the RPA web site and am steaming. Larry Drake has deleted several threads started by Mr. Starr. The threads run similar to the ones on this site, but actually have a number of quite good perspectives not present here.

Larry says there are posts in those threads that "cross the guidelines" of the bulleting board. What those guidelines are or where they came from he doesn't say.

I would be in agreement with censoring profanity or outrageous personal attacks. My opinion, however, is that, despite very good information in them, these threads were deleted because Larry decided they weren't "pretty" enough for the RPA bulletin board.

I am thoroughly disgusted and have said so. I hope others register their opinion of this act.

Bill Clinton

bill clinton_3

RPA censorship

Just checked out the RPA web site and am steaming. Larry Drake has deleted several threads started by Mr. Starr. The threads run similar to the ones on this site, but actually have a number of quite good perspectives not present here.

Larry says there are posts in those threads that "cross the guidelines" of the bulleting board. What those guidelines are or where they came from he doesn't say.

I would be in agreement with censoring profanity or outrageous personal attacks. My opinion, however, is that, despite very good information in them, these threads were deleted because Larry decided they weren't "pretty" enough for the RPA bulletin board.

I am thoroughly disgusted and have said so. I hope others register their opinion of this act.

Bill Clinton

Firedragon_4

Better yet, BOYCOTT!

Mark Eatherton1

Opinion...

logged.

I will admit that the Public Forum is probably not the right place to air your laundry, but we didn't choose the laundromat, Bob Starr did.

The more I think about it, the more I think we're all falling into his web because we create controversy, and controversy causes people to visit his web site, and visits equal CA$H.

My personal opinion is that the less we discuss it, the worse off he will be.

If members of the RPA want to get it off their chest, then let them do so behind closed doors. Arguing in public makes us ALL look bad, right wrong or indifferent.

Put yourself into Jane Q Publics shoes. You come upon a web site looking for information about radiant in general, and you find a war that resembles the Hatfields and McCoys!

NOT a professional picture and I'm including myself in that statement. Not something I'm proud of.

Move the discussion to a private forum and take off the gloves...

Out of sight, out of mind.

JMHO

ME

bill clinton_3

Private forum

is probably a good idea, and I wouldn't object had Larry suggested that. As to whether what happened damaged our industry: I think not. In a world of sacharine "professional" salespitches for tapioca, I think it is refreshing and reassuring to find highly knowledgeable practitioners ready to tell it as they see it. I often fear the RPA is headed for premature death by blandness.

Bill

heatboy

You know...............

if we emphasized what kind of work we do more and paid less attention to things like this, people (our perspective clients) would hold us in a more professional light. We have given this far too much bandwidth already.

As far as the RPA is concerned, vote with your dollars.

hb

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Copy & paste!

No sweat over the posts being moved to an archive - simply highlight & copy to paste:

"Some of us are working to get our codes changed to reflect the common-sense approach you're enjoying in your country. We will eventually prevail.

When I visited ISH in Germany last year, there was an entire halle (their spelling) devoted to Legionella and water protection. When I brought up the notion of an open system with one group of water treatment officials, they thought I was nuts until I could communicate the fact that I firmly believe in keeping the two fluids separated. Where we see this issue being swept under the rug, you and others in Europe bring it out into the open to be treated as the danger it truly represents."

Methinks someone has popped a cork and gone round the bend!


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imatellerslie

I hate to say this, but

you guys have to keep telling your side of the story. As a Hydronics non-professional I have been following these threads, while I read this board to try to educate myself. If you guys don't discuss the health risks and lack of technical basis for his claims, he wins. Every time he posts, he sends consumers to his website, where only his side of the story is revealed.

One piece of advice though: try to keep a cool head. Many people who read one of these threads may be seeing this discussion for the first time. If you respond in an overly emotional way (which I understand after following this for a week or so), you will come across as unreasonable.

For what it's worth, I think most of you guys would be a blast to sit down and have a beer with. I also completely understand your positions on this argument, but only because you've voiced your opinions in the threads I've read.

Cheers,
Russ F., Annapolis, MD

John Felciano

Free advertising

I agree with you Mark, what Robert has done was very calculating and we all fell into his plan.He has gotten loads of free advertising by stirring us up.If he really wanted a honest discussion he would have started the thread on the members side of the BB.

Argueing with him has never,and will never go anywhere.He's been asked for the facts to back up his claims numerous times and will never give them up,if he even has any.

Lets let the thread die!

Boilerpro_3

Say Russ F

I suspect you know that alot of these folks are going to be in Baltimore in a few Weeks, and would be more than hapy to hoist a few with you.

BP

imatellerslie

Are non-pros

welcome? That's only about 15 mins from me. 10 minutes if I'm in a hurry.

Earthfire

only requirement

Be a WET HEAD, Think WET HEAD

DIY Homeowner

the DIY angle

A few comments from a DIY homeowner who would like to install radiant in my next home.

The exchange over on RPA, which I checked everyday, I found educational. Obviously, if Mr. Starr did have good answers to your explicit questions, he would have posted them. So, I was able to infer what was real and what is just marketing on the part of Radiantech. It is exchanges like that one which serves to educate people dilligently trying to learn as much as possible. From this exchange it was plainly obvious that free limited cooling is just not true, open systems are just a bad idea, and water heaters are just not as good as boilers as whole house heating appliances.

The other thing I wanted to express that there is tons and tons and tons of room out there right now for radiant pros and radiant DIYers to happily co-exist. There seems to be the belief that if the pros help out DIYers too much, they will suddenly be forced out of business. This is just not true. Most home owners wouldn't even dream of trying to replace a toilet, let alone plumb an entire house for a radiant retrofit system. To most people, painting a ceiling is a major remodeling project that is too difficult to even try to DIY.

I and many DIYers come to this board seeking info becuase we want it done right. Up to now, I have found it more productive and informative just to lurk, as it seems once most of you folks figure out that many of us will be DIYing, you don't have a good reason to communicate with us anymore.

What I am say is that all you pros in the radiant heat industry have a vested interest on helping DIYers install the best possible systems.

Remember, when DIYers can't get reasonable answers to reasonable questions without being told they we are "out of our league" or we need to "hire a pro", we end up having get answers (and ultimately products) from the likes of Mr. Starr, who recognizes our spirit and treat DIYers with some level of respect, even if the info he gives is questionable. If folks such as Mr. Starr are the ones giving out the majority of advice to DIYers, is this a good thing for the radiant heat industry?

All I am asking is that the pros, who work so hard at radiant heat, and sincerely desire to make it more widely used, is to help those DIYers who DO have the skill, desire, tools and deterimation to find out the right questions to ask, and repond to them without making us feel small. Helping DIYers get good systems will serve as excellent marketing for your industry. Letting DIYers fail, only hurts radiant heat as a whole.

This is all about exposing people to the comfort of radiant. Experiencing a radiant heat system is the best sales pitch. Remember, outside of the community on this forum, most people don't even know what radiant is, let alone how great it feels or how well it can work. If I can install radiant heat in my house, have it work well, and let my family, friends and neighbors experience it first hand, then they will be more likely to hire one of you folks down the road to get it in their houses.

Thank you for your consideration.

bill clinton_3

good reasons not to hide discussion

The posts from DIY Homeowner and imatellerslie argue better for open and free discussion far better than I can. I am sure there are many more who visited these threads and learned a great deal of use to them. Would never happen in a private thread.

Bill

leo g_13

excellent points, DIY

many of us here have been helped by homeowners who have wanted to save a few dollars by doing some grunt. i find it quite pleasurable to be able to stand as my "employer" is on his/her knees tying the tubing down to the mesh. my back loves it!

but more importantly, i believe that the biggest thing with radiant, is to get the tubing layout/installation right! i will install low cost steel boilers, to help save customers money, but we refuse to skimp on tubing. if the tubing is done correct, the heating plant can always be changed in the future.

in my area, radiantecs 16" on centre would not be allowed. our guidelines state 8" max centres for in-joist, and 12" for in-floor.

leo g

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Earthfire

Dear DIY homeowner

Checkout my post to Al on the Radianttec customer thread.

Gordy

G.Kaske

I for one also think you Wet Heads in no way showed lack of professionalism. You granted Mr. Starr the right to defend his company and only asked for information to claimed truths that are stretched to the limit and he could not produce. You guys did a wonderful job at extracting the information that the consumer needs, to make a reasonably competent decision when researching and buying prospective products.I'm not a radiant installer or designer,I build bridges,(and no I,m not a Dentist)I happend to buy into a home with radiant heat and for the past 4 years have come to the RPA and this site for answers to questions and information this art grows on me and my thirst for knowledge is great. I'am a DIY but one needs to know thier limitations also, leave the heating plant to the professionals please for your own saftey and others. Anyway I want to thank all of you for your charisma, and love for the art it is most enjoyable to come here and look at the disscusions.

Mad Dog

I agree with Dr Russ......keep firing away

but keep a cool head. The truth must be outed!!!!!!! Don't get weary. Mad Dog

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mph

DIYhomeowner's point

Very well stated positions. I couldn't agree more. I, for one, welcome DIY'ers. My hope is that they would know their limitations and ask the pros BEFORE getting in over their heads (and leave the actual boiler install to us). I would ask, that as professionals, we do as this writer has suggested and try not to belittle, offend or otherwise turn off future, potential customers and radiant advocates when they come to this forum seeking advice.

Jeff

imatellerslie

I have a new title!

Yay!

I'll be writing the book soon. "Heating systems and life, according to Dr. Russ"

PJO_5

Here Here!

I agree with leaving this discussion open...truth will prevail.

Very well said DIY...

Wallies, keep the faith. Only 7 days 'til the big day!

From a wethead wannabe...or WAH (PAH's cousin?)

Take Care, PJO