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Massachusetts Plumbing Board
What a HUGE mistake they have just made.
From the information I've read here and elsewhere, the MASS Board of Plumbers & Gasfitters here have recently approved open combined systems. They could have at minimum directed test site status but they chose not to. Instead, they have granted full approval to potentially contaminate and cause known water bourn diseases. I believe the new approval number is P1-03-04-17.
I may go as far as refusing to pay my renewal fee. Apparently the board doesn't understand that the company that promotes this system direct markets to Massachussets residents and claims that "licensed plumbers are not necessary" to work on these types of systems. A seemingly clear violation of our state law. It is likely that a loop hole was found and our dog & pony show friends (Mr Star's company) jumped right through it.
There is strength in numbers "boys". I urge any licensed plumbers or heating professionals with the common sense to recognize the possible health risks associated with open systems to write to the Board and voice your concerns. You don't have to be licensed or even live in this state to speak out.
To add insult to injury, the Board of Registration has once again INCREASED their licensing fees. Didn't they just increase the renewal fee last time?
Do the right thing. Protect the Health of the Nation.
Gary Wallace MASSLic#20971
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=296&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>
From the information I've read here and elsewhere, the MASS Board of Plumbers & Gasfitters here have recently approved open combined systems. They could have at minimum directed test site status but they chose not to. Instead, they have granted full approval to potentially contaminate and cause known water bourn diseases. I believe the new approval number is P1-03-04-17.
I may go as far as refusing to pay my renewal fee. Apparently the board doesn't understand that the company that promotes this system direct markets to Massachussets residents and claims that "licensed plumbers are not necessary" to work on these types of systems. A seemingly clear violation of our state law. It is likely that a loop hole was found and our dog & pony show friends (Mr Star's company) jumped right through it.
There is strength in numbers "boys". I urge any licensed plumbers or heating professionals with the common sense to recognize the possible health risks associated with open systems to write to the Board and voice your concerns. You don't have to be licensed or even live in this state to speak out.
To add insult to injury, the Board of Registration has once again INCREASED their licensing fees. Didn't they just increase the renewal fee last time?
Do the right thing. Protect the Health of the Nation.
Gary Wallace MASSLic#20971
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=296&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>
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Comments
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That figures! I don't think that Board will ever be
the same now that Lou Visco has retired!0 -
Well lets wait and see
First of all we do not have a copy of the approval and what it pertains too. As far as I have found all that has been talked about is a approval number. I have not been able to find out what that pertains too, the owner of this company could be stating something that is not complete.
My understanding is that pex tubing is still not approved in Mass so how could this company designed be approved ?
Is it possible that a combined system using copper tubing is the intent of this approval ?
I will wait and see what the exact wording of this apporval is.
As far as the Board it is my understanding that there are changes happing with newer people coming on board. Change does not happen quickly in Any goverment. I give the new members a while to show their stuff.
Monday I will try and get the approval numbers complete text.
Scott
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Mass
Pex tubing should be allowed for plumbing!!! in my town even l copper fails in as little as 10 years because the waters so bad. Now open systems that's a different story, why they would allow that is beyond me. maybe the board is confusing these two issues and not treating them seperatly??
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the other letter
that might work as well, is to write to your local and state board of health. Just a thought
Chuck
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No pex in MA?
I know of at least one new home in Upton, MA that has a hot water boiler feeding an attic hydro air handler with PEX. Inspected and approved.0 -
pex is not
yet approved in Massachusetts for domestic water (at least to my knowledge), heating is fine.
Chuck
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Pex can be used for water in mass...
I hear it's a simple thing too.........you see there's this letter that one pex rep has and I'm sure others have which allow you to use pex, It's been this way for a while now.
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> I know of at least one new home in Upton, MA that
> has a hot water boiler feeding an attic hydro air
> handler with PEX. Inspected and approved.
Thats heating and has nothing to do with the plumbing code.0 -
potable PEX
No legit reason not to use potable PEX. Works just fine with re-circ too.
The flow rates and pressure drop must be watched, as with any piping system, or you'll end up with scalding issues. But, if'n you mind yer P's & Q's, PEX can be fun to work with. Chust depends on the application.
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pex
we've done miles of pex for years including in upton for heat but here we're talking about plumbing completly different code in Mass.
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Test case's
Your talking about pex being used for plumbing as a test case. Yes, its just a formality and yea, are board is taking its time to approve pex. I suspect it will happen soon.
I STILL know of no code change that allows it without a test case approval number, jobsite by jobsite.
Again lets read the full text of this before we jump.
Scott
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I don't get the issue
This company appears to be an established company that uses the internet as a tool to sell in addition to ads in magazines, direct mailing etc.
They state on their web site that << Since it is impossible for a manufacturer to know the particulars of all state and local codes, it is your responsibility to make certain that your proposed heating system complies with them. ... urges you to consult with the appropriate code officials before purchasing>>
I would presume that if the State Law requires that a plumber be hired that one would do so. It seems plumbers are seeing this approval as threat to their job security. Or, is it having to learn a 'new way' that is the threat?0 -
Tradesmen expect the Boards and Regulators to
monitor and police controversial issues.
It's true that the major burden of an installation an illegal piece of equipment is primarily the fault of the installer whether he is licensed or not, FACT!
In the case of homeowners they have a little more latitude in states where there are no laws specifically spelling out the contrary. But, in MA in regards to several issues including oilburners, gasfitting and plumbing it is illegal to do the work without a license.
NO OEM is exempt from legal action regardless of what he puts in his literature, website, etc, FACT! Further, if he knowingly makes for sale a piece of equipment that has not been approved, the OEM, rep, distributor and wholesaler can be found negligent.
In addition, the rep, distributor and wholesaler if they claim were not told and lied to have an excellent case for FRAUD!
Every issue eventually comes clean in the wash!0 -
still don't get it
My question was about heating.........with radiant heating not about oilburners, gasfitting and plumbing. I had assumed that if code approves it then it would be a system I should consider.0 -
Nobdoy is questioning the material or system,
just how the two are used. It's not really an issue for a DIY, sorry! These guys are worried about a safety issue, not a performance issue.
If you're going to put in a new system get at least three quotes (and opinions) from three REPUTABLE contractors (with references) and don't worry about it.0 -
BTW, an OEM in my opinion SHOULD know the codes, FACT!
0 -
Anne
I won't get into the discussion about the slimey (JMHO) company, but if you've been coming to "The WALL" for any time at all,then you would know that your comments "It seems plumbers are seeing this approval as threat to their job security. Or, is it having to learn a 'new way' that is the threat? " are way off base.
The gentlemen that are involved in this debate are some of the most progressive, open minded people in the business. They have in many ways lead the charge to find the better and SAFER way to provide comfort to their and our clients. Their concern is that something is being promoted that is inherantly a disaster waiting to happen. The air handlers at The BELLVIEW STRATTFORD were code compliant, Then one day a bunch of people from one group died. How many died before that,and nobody connected it to an Unknown disease.
Today we know what it is and how to prevent it. This outfit is of the same moral character as the mayor in the first JAWS movie. "Open the beach, I need the MONEY!!!"So what if somebody gets eatten by that fish.0 -
The issue
Is that the use of potable water as the fluid for a radiant heating system is bad. The primary issue is that potable water routed from a domestic hot water heater should not be used for a radiant floor heating system, unless it has been separated by a heat exchanger to keep the heating water separate from the potable water. Legionella (and various other nasties) like water temperatures between 90-125F, which is the nominal temperature that one usually operates radiant floor heating at. The use of non oxygen barrier piping further exacerbates the situation, since oxygen will permeate the non-pex piping and allow other things to happen in an open water system- corrosion of ferrous materials and other metals in the open piping system. As a design professional, I would never mix potable water with a heating system, it has far too much risk, given the information we know today. So, even if the system in question used 140F potable water to be piped from the domestic hot water heater through a radiant floor heating system, the fact that oxygen is being allowed into the system on the way by is a serious risk and if the right components of the whole system are not addressed properly, well, there will be problems.0 -
dismissing DIY
Should not health issues be of concern to DIY? Since this is heating help can you help me determine what is an "unhealthy" or dangerous system or for that matter how to determine who is considered a disreputable contractor?0 -
dismissing DIY
Should not health issues be of concern to DIY? Since this is heating help can you help me determine what is an "unhealthy" or dangerous system or for that matter how to determine who is considered a disreputable contractor?0 -
If possible...
please post the e-mail address of someone from the board. I'd love to give them my perspective as a licensed master plumber too.
Thanks!
ME0 -
You right I think the approval is a permanent approval for Hydro air not radiant.0 -
Mass plumbing board
Contact Info
JOSEPH A PELUSO JR
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF MA PLUMBERS
617 727 7377
FAX 617 727 2366
EMAIL joseph.a.peluso@state.ma.us
www.state.ma.us/reg/boards/pl0 -
Mass inspections
To the best of my knowledge, there is no inspection for hydronic heat piping required by the plumbing regs in Mass. for any component downstream of the backflow preventer valve.
Open direct systems are just plain dumb. Come on people, water heaters are cheap. Just install two - one for heat, the other for hot water.0 -
Mr. Waskiewicz
Joe,
It's nice to hear from you. Don't you sit on The Board here in the Commonwealth?
Perhaps you can define what the new aprovals wording means to the industry?
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Mass Plumbing Board
> Joe,
>
> It's nice to hear from you. Don't you sit
> on The Board here in the Commonwealth?
>
> Perhaps
> you can define what the new aprovals wording
> means to the industry?
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0
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