Engineer's response

Wayco Wayne_2

with a radiant floor design for a pre fab building called a Yurt, designed after the old mongolian sructures from Attila the Hun days. I've mentioned it before on the Wall. It's a 34 diameter round building with a cone shaped cathedral ceiling and a 6 ft diameter skylight at the top that can be opened. There are operable windows most of the way around it so they can be opened on nice days along with the skylight to provide a nice chimney affect non mechanical breeze. The church has bought a property out in the country and will build the structure among the trees for a nice shady setting. The archetech hired an engineering firm to help draw up mechanical plans for code approval. It's been a struggle between poor church and modern design requirements from the start. The engineering firm used design considerations used for office buildings with inoperable windows which need mechanical ventilation which drives up A/C and Heating capacity requirements and operating costs. We went from light and airy tent like structure with radiant floor in the woods to 12 ton package heat pump with full blown duct in slab (can you say mold?) and 15 cfm per person ventilation for an 80 person occupancy. We wanted radiant floor with a few ductless systems for the really hot days, and let us open the windows on the moderate days. The engineers told us it couldn't be done that way. They also told us the ductless units were too noisy for a church.????? Long story short some members went straight to the code office and found out that if your operable windows make up 4% of your floor space then you don't need mechanical ventilation. They actually trust us to know enough to open windows if it gets stuffy. This has been going on for months now. The engineers response to our discovery was to resign in a huff since we didn't buy into his design that would have cost us 40,000 dollars to install. We can do it our way for about 10,000 and the congregation is much happier with that number. I don't understand the mind set of some engineering firms that can only think of one way to do things, in a cookie cutter mentality. Instead of working with us and trying to meet our wants they tried to cram a pre-conceived notion down our throats only to leave in a huff when we worked towards simplicity and economy.

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ScottMP

Its my Ball and I am going home

Wayne some people just wnat to be in charge and can not open their mind enough. Same with alot of architects.

Building a yurt in the woods with your church ? You guys don't serve koolaid do ya ?

Scott

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[Deleted User]

what amazes me is that

some ancient mongol figured out how to ventilate more efficiently than a modern eng-inear..post a picture when its done please.

Ex Maine Doug

My Sanyo ductless split unit

is a quiet system. it is high on the wall of my 43x38 shop with glass on 3 sides. The fan can be set on automatic so that when the temp gets closer to set point, it starts to slow down and at set point is whisper quiet in a 3 ton unit. It has a remote control and a louver that moves to ensure good air circulation. Since I teach stained glass classes in the shop, a quiet AC was important. Some of the split ductless units can have one outside unit feeding 2 inside units. The Carrier we started with was not only noisy, it lasted for 3 months and burned itself up.

Joel_3

Uhhuh

Most engineers can't handle it when someone suggests something other than thier idea. In thier defense however this is something we are struggling with in Mass big time. The code says if it's a public space and you install A/C it MUST have mechanical make up air. So that basically rules out a minisplit in any commercial structure! That's bad news for lots of exsisting properties like a church etc that don't have A/C. I looked at a flat roof nursing home without A/C no place for ducts. A Mitsubishi in each room would be perfect. Individual contoll over each space for comfort and for savings. BUT that means technically no fresh air. Soooo then what? let those poor old people swelter away in there like they've been doing for years??? seems stupid to me, Sure fresh air would be great but isn't straight up A/C better than the absolute nothing they have now? Codes and common sense are not the same things. Your engineer may have walked because he doesn't want to be on the hook if/when the lawsuits fly, they probably wouldn't, but that's what everybody is afraid of. Esp up here in Lawsuitachussets.

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jerry scharf

creativity and flexibility can be taught

but rarely is. If you ever get a chance to work with a good CalTech or MIT engineer, it's amazing the training they have receieved in creating nontypical solutions. It also helps that they are picking from the best people out there.

I heard this attitude as "my way or the highway." You knew you were in trouble when they weren't listening to the design requirements. Sadly you will have to pay them for a whole lot of useless work. Think what would have happened if you weren't around to advise them as well.

It's like so many other things, you don't know whether the person is qualified to do the work until they are halfway through.You do due diligence, but rerely do yo uhave enough information to be sure. It's always humbling to be on the other side of the fence. It gives some perspective on how hard it is for a homeowner to make these same decisions about heating professionals.

As for engineers, I've come mostly to the place that I pay them hourly and they work at my choice. If the design is done and they did their part, the stamp should not be an extra fee. It means I have to manage them, but that's often better than them managing themselves on my behalf. I also like to do things that aren't listed on their flat rate sheet.:)

jerry

Mark Eatherton1

Whatever happend...

to common sense?

I swear on my dead mommas bible, I think the first thing they do to engineering students is to remove their common sense glands...

ME

Mad Dog

Jonestown.........Jonestown........Jonestown....................

don't drink the Kool Aid! Mad Dog

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Dave Yates (PAH)

A few weeks ago

we installed one of the new Mitsubishi variable speed mini-split heat pump systems. They're the heat pump version of a Munchkin with sensors dictating what speed to run both the compressor and indoor wall-mounted air handlers. A wide variety of combinations are available to connect up with the 30,000 Btu outdoor unit.

When ready, you simply turn on one of the indoor units at a time and the system "learns" its heating/cooling curve.

You want quiet? At low speeds you can't hear them running! Because they incorporate inverter technology (changing single phase to three phase internally), no electric strip heat in needed to adequately meet design loads.

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Wayco Wayne_2

Hah!

no Kool-aid. Lots of coffee though. I guess we're just a bunch of old hippies that got jobs and grew up, and now we want to commune in a Yurt in the woods. I'm interested in that Mitsubishi variable speed ductless unit. Heard tell of it coming. Didn't know it was availible. WW

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Tom Anderson

Lobonomy

RE: "Whatever happend... to common sense? "

"I swear on my dead mommas bible, I think the first thing they do to engineering students is to remove their common sense glands... "

Huh. The process to acquire an engineering degree seems to include a lobodomy on the creative half of the brain. Remarkably,about 20% of the engineering graduates are able to avoid this phenomena.

:-)

leo g_13

interesting

ly, i have been researching aspergers syndrone, as one of my sons, shows symptoms of this difference. one of the things that has come up in the research, is that a higher then normal proportion of these kids fathers or grandfathers were/are engineers.

one of the differences in an asperger syndrome person, is that they find it hard to to allow other opinions into their world.

leo g

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Wayco Wayne_2

Sounds like

Architechs too. WW

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JP_5

IBC, IMC

I'm in the congregation Wayne's talking about. Too bad Massachusetts has its own code instead of the IBC/IMC. We found that if you have operable windows/doors etc. equivalent to 4% of the sq. ft. of the area you're ventilating (no matter what use space), mechanical ventilation is not required. It's a big either/or in the International Building Code (Chapter 12). Hope Massachusetts code incorporates or references IBC so you can finesse the requirements, but doesn't sound like it.

Earthfire

sometimes

they grow out of it when they hit about 50

Doug_7

Code ventilation exemption for operable windows

Wayne - Does your local building code have a specific exemption that if your operable windows make up 4% of your floor space then you don't need mechanical ventilation - or - did you get a special verbal or written exemption from your code officials for operable windows ? Can you post the code exemption for operable windows ?

Our local building code clearly requires mechanical ventilation.

S. Domingues

I am currently an engineering student studying at NJIT, New Jersey Institute of Technology. Sometimes I too think that engineers lose common sense, but its only because they have the tendency to make the easiest thing the hardest thing. But the biggest case I think is insurance, some of my professors that are practicing engineers, mostly consulting work, actually work without insurance, (of course he has insurance but not that specific type), and just rest on P.E., thus failure of a design means loss of license. When you dont have insurance, lawyers dont see you as a candidate for a lawsuit.

Jack_23

There are a bunch of yurts

a bit N or Syracuse NY that are being heated very nicely with Rinnai 1004's. Cooling with a Fujitsu Mini-split. IMHO. I lived in a yurt in the Ithaca area for two yrs. (74-75). Sweet! A lot of work but low overhead.

Earthfire

no insurance

most have no insurance because they are uninsurable. The other reason lawyers don't sue is that there is nothing left to collect against.