that WM Ultra reset curve (attached)

R. Kalia

Below you will see a copy of the WM Ultra's reset curve choices, a snapshot from their 'control supplement'---see
http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/Ultra%20310/5501012410903Control.pdf

It seems to me that by reaching maximum water temperature at a non-negotiable 32F outdoor temperature, people with lower design outdoor temperatures will:
(a) lose the benefit of reset and near-continuous circulation; and
(b) if they need max water temps of 160 or 190, they will lose the benefit of condensing for a larger part of the winter than is necessary, because the water temperature goes above 130 too soon. Also, c) the curves (unlike, say, Tekmar's curves) make no allowance for non-linear devices e.g. baseboard.

Am I missing something (I'm just a homeowner trying to educate myself), or are they just incompetent? They're in Michigan City, IN...they are producing a condensing boiler that won't condense most of the winter in their own area, if used in a radiator/baseboard application!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Beats the s$*t out of me...

...perhaps ease of setup at the expense of versatility?

Given that information, all of your conclusions seem valid.

jwade55_3

My thought is.

That it is a very poor way , to do outdoor reset. With WM's statement that the Ultra is to be used in new construction not retrofit, this makes no sense. A new home should have a much lower heat loss than a existing structure, so lower water temp to satisify design. What I have looked at is lets figure 0 deg design, and 180 deg water at design, vs 100 deg at 60 deg outdoor. I see about 35 deg of water temp that we could save by going to 0 vs 32, which in this area equates to 2000 bin hours, bottom line, has to be big BUCK$.

J

Boiler Guy

Low Temp Reset

I did not know this! I just sold 2 Ultra boilers on the basis built in I/O reset. My design temp is -25F. From what is being said here I may be bettoer off not using the built in reset and adding and external Tekmar. Thoughts!?

R. Kalia

> That it is a very poor way , to do outdoor reset.

> With WM's statement that the Ultra is to be used

> in new construction not retrofit, this makes no

> sense. A new home should have a much lower heat

> loss than a existing structure, so lower water

> temp to satisify design. What I have looked at

> is lets figure 0 deg design, and 180 deg water at

> design, vs 100 deg at 60 deg outdoor. I see

> about 35 deg of water temp that we could save by

> going to 0 vs 32, which in this area equates to

> 2000 bin hours, bottom line, has to be big

> BUCK$.

>

> J

Just Stand

Ultra

Well......... I sell Ultras here in Southwest Colorado ask your wholesaler to get you a "R" module for your boiler it is designed for DAHL ( where I work) a division of Hajoca Corp. here in the mountains of colorado it has a 0 deg. reset curve we ssaw this before the ultra hit market and requested the modified module for our use

R. Kalia

external Tekmar

I am still learning, but it is my understanding that it is not always obvious how to add a Tekmar to a modulating boiler. In doing it, one may have to bypass the entire control logic and thus disable the modulation. But it probably depends on how the controller is designed and what external inputs it allows, so maybe no general statement can be made.

Boiler Guy

I appreciate

the input. I am penning a message to my rep immediately Thanks

Boilerpro_3

I was just talking to tekmar today about that

and the new 253? control will modulate two to three boilers and operate their pumps. As of now the Ultras are the only ones it will work with in the smaller residential condensing sizes.

BP

R. Kalia

how do I know Munchkin isn't badly designed also?

Munchkin has posted a regular installation manual on the web, but not the Vision manual. I saw on one reseller's web site (which had all the other Munchkin manuals posted) that Munchkin had asked that they NOT post the Vision manual.

So how do I know Munchkin's reset capabilities are not also poorly-thought-out in some way? I gather from the above that some contractors may not pay any attention to this stuff...

With Tekmar, I can read the relevant manuals and I can tell that the units are properly designed.

ScottMP

Chuckles

I believe that Munchkin did not just want to "throw" this out to the general public right away. The vision control is only available at this point to certified ( read company trained ) contractors. I think its good idea. I do not have the info on the curve options for the vision, but iam sure some one else here does.

I am still not impressed with the Ultra. Still cant get the image out of my mind that WM decide to jump into the condesing market without alot of thought. Hey it does have that outlet on the side.

Scott

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Unknown

> I believe that Munchkin did not just want to

> "throw" this out to the general public right

> away. The vision control is only available at

> this point to certified ( read company trained )

> contractors. I think its good idea. I do not have

> the info on the curve options for the vision, but

> iam sure some one else here does.

>

> I am still

> not impressed with the Ultra. Still cant get the

> image out of my mind that WM decide to jump into

> the condesing market without alot of thought.

> Hey it does have that outlet on the side.

> Scott

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 237&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Unknown

Scott, just one point

Weil-McLain was 15 years developing the Ultra. They had wanted to get into the condensing market for a long time. Some of the Ultra design is also influenced by European design as is the Munchkin.

ScottMP

I under stand Tim

My first experience with the Ultra was a dinner meeting where the sales pitch was along the lines of "you guys want all this high tech stuff, otherwise we'd have standing pilots". The inflexabilty of the heating curve, and other issiues have left me wondering about this product.

Scott

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Radiant Wizard

The Proper Application

as I see it for this boiler is for a radiant application. You could take a hot water baseboard leg off the indirect zone to satisfy a baseboard zone but I then you would have an open system which I am not a fan of.

RC

Weil McLain's Ultra screw up

I asked the WM guys when they gave us a seminar why the boiler goes to high fire when it drops below 32F. I guess the design is a flaw. When WM submitted their specs to whoever in europe manufacters this boilers for them. The designer mistakenly set it up 0 celius i.e. 32F for the reset curve So when we were at the seminar. I asked "So it doesn't have true outdoor reset. Their reply was "uhh...No"
I kinda burst the seminar bubble, but oh well.
Ross

Floyd_5

There are changes coming....

Wm did a CYA on this boiler to save some of the problems that wew are seeing with some other mod. boilers......
For now if you have a double boiler application the Tekmar 265 will provide full reset, rotation, and sequential or parrelell modulation.
The Tekmar 263 is coming and will provide full reset for just one mod. boiler.
To interface with the Tekmar you need to get from WM an AM-4 module that will just take over the modulation of the boiler.
Part #383-500-396
WM is also selling the Tekamr 265..
Part#389-900-001

So far I have 8 of these up and running... 5 more waiting for hookup.....absolutely NO problems so far... one boiler has been running in a setpoint application since 9/16/03...has not shut off.. just floating away maintaining the setpoint temp. (144*)
We'll soon see what these things are made of....:-)

If I can ever get caught up I'll try to give more details and pics., but until then, with gas prices on the rise....


Cha-ching!!!!

Floyd

LEAD PIPE

reset

It was kind of a pain changing the reset temp. every few days when the weather changed. I saved a lot of $ this winter so it was worth it.

Paul_28

Purge Valve

Is the purge valve in the drawing in the correct location? I think it should be moved to the rigth side, between the Flow Check and the Isolatiion Valve. Yes NO???

R. Kalia

using manual \"reset\"

So why have built-in reset at all if people are forced to use (a) manual reset (I do that now in my old boiler using the aquastat dial!), or (b) an add-on Tekmar controller?

The business about the European engineer confusing 0F and 0C is very funny and quite plausible. I guess the US is still in the Dark Ages as far as measurement units are concerned---the rest of the world speaks English to accomodate us, but we won't use standard units to accomodate them.

Boiler Guy

Feedback

Got a response from the rep today. He was aware of the "condition" but thought it was not an issue. He has promised to provide an answer. Will keep you posted.

Earthfire

how

would you have an open system by running base board of the indirect leg from the boiler? The only way you could create an open system would be to run a heating application from the potable side of the indirect water heater.