design help

solderman

I live in a rural area where the only heat to be had is either firewood, baseboard electric, or heat pumps. Well I decided hydronic is the way to go and installed a Radiantec system(out of Vermont and I live in Washington state) back in '94. Not a Knothead in sight knows what it is. I was supplied with little install info, and less design info. I have a central supply line with branch to each zone and a corresponding central return line. I was told to put a large Grundfos at the large manifold and small ones at the remaining smaller zones. Well the large pump overpowerd the small ones so I put the large one at the head of the supply and did away with the small ones at each zone. Now I just manually flip the stat up and away she goes, with no control as to which zone gets what...crude. The kids flip the stat up when they get home after school and it is manually turned down at bedtime. So hot for 8 hours and cold for 16. I rigged a 60gallon HW tank to run top and bottom elements independantly on their own 220 feeds. After 4 hours I might get 80deg water. What a bomb. I have a Polaris Propane rig that sits in the garage that I would like to hook up. I was thinking of running 3/4 copper supply and return lines independantly to each zone and a pump at the boiler for each line. A stat would turn on each zone's pump, but what about balancing long and short loops? Would one pump starve another if on at the same time?. I would like to put this system to bed since I've been running for 10 years this way.Where could I get help???? I mean Help!!! Any input would be greatly appreciated. I would do some reading if any books are recommended. Thanks in advance...Tom

Robert O'Connor_7

You came to the right place

Need more specific info. As for books, Mr. H has a few to sell you here. Good luck. sounds like you might need some. Look to the left, and click on books and more. BOC

Mark Eatherton1

Questions..

galore.

Did you try and get help from Radiantec?

Was a heat loss performed on your house?

Was the modification to the elements on the water heater done per the manufacturers recommendations?

What's the length of the loops?

What pipe size are the loops?

What centers are they installed on under the floor?

Do they have any kind of heat transmisson plate or "reflector plate" on them?

Is there insulation below the tubing to keep the heat from flowing downward?

Are our utility bills outrageous?

Are you comfortable?

Did I forget anything?

Did you forget anything?

We'll do our best to make you comfortable:-)

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Hmmm...

I hope he's OKay...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

He IS Okay...

Tom responded to a direct e-mail from me. He's just a working dad that doesn't have a lot of spare time. Hopefully he can get back to the Wall this weekend with answers.

ME

solderman

Dear ME, et al.,
Am a rookie not only at hydronice heating but using forums also. Finally figured out there was a reply button on each comment/reply. Well I use the 7/8" Radiantec tube(remember the year is '94 and knew nothing of Pex). I ran it OVER the subfloor and poured concrete on it. Spacing is 12 to 16 inches because it was stifffff and haaaard to bend. Couldn't see me pouring a continuous stream of hot water down it(remember I somehow installed 3000+ feet! of it) and it was winter time. On a good day it has a 2ft wide return bend. No heat distribution plates were used. Floor Sq Ft is 2400 on main floor. Because the tube is 7/8" had to pour 1+3/4" light weight over it..whew.. Floor is insulated with R30..no foil/bubble though. Loops are 400, and 200(mainly 400 on large kitchen/LR/Hall zone). I have a wire diagram laid out on a piece of plywood of the diagram, and took pics of critical ares showing tube pattern. I had no heat loss calcs performed. Mr Starr is a man of few words who sized my job in 10 seconds based on Sq footage(feet of tube/Sq foot). Glad I didn't buy the open loop theory they offered. Keep plenty cool in summer here. I have a closed loop system running off a domestic style HW heater. Top and bottom element run on their own stats and feeds. We are comfortable if you are willing to wait 4 to 6 hours(10 or 12 when we have a real cold snap) for the system to get rolling. Hope the Polaris Propane boiler he sold me works better when its finally installed. The stats he sent out are really sloppy and for a slow moving system to catch up to a 4 or 5 deg temp loss...well I guess that doesn't make it comfortable. I've tried running the pump control on a timer but doesn't match the outside temp well. Don't need killer heat when one of the few sunny winter days comes along and solar gain does well for us. Heat bills in winter are 175$/mo..if we run 8hrs on and 16hrs off. I must say I sent away for Siegenthaler's book. I downloaded a couple DH's e-books. I'm trying. Got Pics of tube layouts if interested. My inspiration has been a comment by my neighbor who is Heat Pump tech and is one of the local Knotheads..."You have to be a Heat Pump tech to own a heat pump", and "if you own a heat pump you'll be married to me". I have a wife. Thanks for listening.

Mark Eatherton1

Tom...

Thanks for getting back to us on this public forum. Others can learn from everyones experiences. Your system sounds salvageable. It will take some work, and some more money, but we will eventually get you to the point of comfort and efficiency.

More questions for you.

Is the piping conducive to multiple zones? Typically, there are a minimum of 3 zones used. Common use areas, non common use areas and sleeping areas. If these are areas are conducive to being independenatly zones, it will help to maintain comfort and decrease energy consumption for those areas that are rarely used. Photos would be very helpful, and any drawings that you can generate showing the piping layout would also be of great help.

ME

mike parnell

radiant floor(concrete,gypcrete or combo of both)

I am in the process of installing a radiant heat system in my new house,this is the second radiant project ive done,my question now is , to make the slab lightweight,can something like vermiculite be added to the concrete mixture to increase volume and lighten the load. Or what about mixing gypsum and concrete to sand for a lighter system weight. thank you
ps,, the house is about 2900 sf very open floor plan , max ceiling height is about 26 ft

Mark Eatherton1

Youker mix...

From John Siegenthalers book.

Mix design for 1 Cubic Yard of 3000 psi thin slab concrete

517 lbs Type 1 Portland cement
1639 lbs Concrete sand
1485 lbs #1A (1/4" max) crushed stone
4.14 onces Air entrainment agent
15.5 ounces Hycol (water reducing agent)
1.5 lbs fiber mesh
51.7 ounces Superplasticizer (WRDA-19)
20 gallons of dihydrogenmonoxide (H20)

Any mobile pre-mix company worth their salt should be able to fix you up with this mix.

ME