Who designs Radiant Systems

Earthfire

Took this quote from the Munchkin thread. "( I'm amazed how many jobs I lose to supposed professionals who install a CI boiler with no mixing feeding a complete radiant house. A wholesaler just told me that the concern I share is overrated. He claims he has kept track and none of the systems he has designed in this fashion has had condensation problems. )"
Is the boiler manufacturer or the installer responsibile for the problems down the road? The salesman at the supply house (or rep) who is only concerned with moving product out of his door is HARMING his clients and associates( The manufacturers, the installers, the homeowners, and his competitors.) Is anybody going to remember that the wholesalers salesman designed a system that is substandard? The answers going to be: the damn plastic pipe is junk! the boiler is junk! that damn system is just a fad. The REAL ANSWER is: everyone that graduated high school has had at least one class on basic High School Physics. The LAWS of PHYSICS rule every day life. Drop a wrench it falls down, heat goes to cold,etc. You have to RESPECT the LAWS of PHYSICS, disregard Them, They will come back to bite ya, just like the falling wrench that your dumb enough to be standing under.
A Installer that says, "there is nothing to this stuff its just pipe" and has had no training goes to the wholesaler, who sees "Lowball Man", and the wholesaler(rep) wants to sell product. "That mixing valve is too expensive, besides we don't stock it and it'll take 4 wks to get here. That reset control, What do ya want that stuff for? too much money & can't get one for 6 wks. besides nobody else uses it or we would be stocking it. Oh yeh, the shipping on all that SPECIAL ORDER stuff will kill ya."
The system rewards the bottom feeders, sales man moves units out the door gets a fat bonus, a vacation in cancun, etc. When the warranty claims come in do they come back to the salesman that misapplied the product ? No it costs the homeowner (Agravation), the installer (if he is still around), the service company that has to deal with a dog of a job and an upset homeowner, And last but not least the boiler and tubing manufacturers.And the wholesaler(Rep) makes out cause the product moves thru his doors.
Just my RANT for today :-) The day is only half done!

jwade55_3

WOW!

Hit the nail on the head, my view is that the only way to combat this BIG problem, is EDUCATION!!! The problem as I see it is not only at the wholesales level, but at the Rep and Mfg level. In my day to day travels I see entirely too much misinformation, passed on from one level to another, instead of following the above quoted "laws of physics", people try to invent their own to take advantage of their particular product spin.

As to the job design being influenced by what is on the shelf, would anyone paint their house a color they didn't like, i.e. pink, because "it was on the shelf"?

J

Rudy

A worthy rant for small contractors

like me who have (and are still) learning the hard way. I used to rely on my wholesalers for tech support for scorched air installs. With my intelligence and penchant for "design and install like it was my own home", none required major changes due to customer complaints. I've finished more than one job after the GC was fired becouse of my relationship with the HO.

Enter hydronic design and install and I realize just how "dumb I am". This site and others like it have made me question the advice of my suppliers and I find myself EDUCATING THEM. Absorbing the accumulated knowledge of Dan, Siggy, and the others at this site who are years ahead of me has benefitted my customers. Sure I've made some piping and distribution mistakes and ALWAYS fixed them at little or no charge to the GC or homeowner.

Back in the day, counter guys at the wholesalers were a wealth of knowledge. Now they move to "inside sales" and the counter guys are mere parts pickers.

Knowledge is power and if your knowledge exceeds that of your supplier, take the reins and insist on doing it your way. We all know it costs more to do it twice than to do it right the first time. Stick to your guns, do it like YOU KNOW IT SHOULD BE DONE, get your price, and everyone's happy.


Can you belive that not one Danfoss supplier in metro Chicago had a 1 and1/4 or 1/2 140* ESBE on the shelf two days ago. ALL were special order-non stock!!!


EDUCATE THEM!! That's why all these beautiful contractors and engineers are sharing their wisdom with us at this site............BOO YAH....DAN!!!!!


TG

Rudy

A worthy rant for small contractors

like me who have (and are still) learning the hard way. I used to rely on my wholesalers for tech support for scorched air installs. With my intelligence and penchant for "design and install like it was my own home", none required major changes due to customer complaints. I've finished more than one job after the GC was fired becouse of my relationship with the HO.

Enter hydronic design and install and I realize just how "dumb I am". This site and others like it have made me question the advice of my suppliers and I find myself EDUCATING THEM. Absorbing the accumulated knowledge of Dan, Siggy, and the others at this site who are years ahead of me has benefitted my customers. Sure I've made some piping and distribution mistakes and ALWAYS fixed them at little or no charge to the GC or homeowner.

Back in the day, counter guys at the wholesalers were a wealth of knowledge. Now they move to "inside sales" and the counter guys are mere parts pickers.

Knowledge is power and if your knowledge exceeds that of your supplier, take the reins and insist on doing it your way. We all know it costs more to do it twice than to do it right the first time. Stick to your guns, do it like YOU KNOW IT SHOULD BE DONE, get your price, and everyone's happy.


Can you belive that not one Danfoss supplier in metro Chicago had a 1 and1/4 or 1/2 140* ESBE on the shelf two days ago. ALL were special order-non stock!!!


EDUCATE THEM!! That's why all these beautiful contractors and engineers are sharing their wisdom with us at this site............BOO YAH!!....DAN!!!!!


TG

Earthfire

If I was paranoid

I'd believe that there was a conspiracy to drive the cost of a quality system thru the roof. It's amazing after throwing a tantram with the owner of a supply house how suprised they always are that an Item that I got them to stock for me, since I was the only one asking for it is suddenly selling well, even being transfered to the other branches that had never had any call for it. If it's on the shelf it can sell. If I have to wait 6 wks, I'm going to a different source. Example of bright supply house: last August. Delavan nozzles on close out to be discontinued. I bought all they had on the counter.Reason for closeout: Inventory clerk decided they were dog items that were not needed in inventory since they had no sales for three months. Best one was new stock for heating season was not ordered because they were no longer going to stock nozzles ,no sales. Talk about sending your customers to the competition.

Ken_8

I had the same

problem with vapostats.

The guy says I'm the only one ordering them (5 years ago). Now, 20% of all the guys know why they are perfect for a steam replacement and buy them at the "other" supply house. Of course they (contractors) also buy half the other stuff needed there - rather than hit two supply houses.

The non-stocker wonders why the economy's booming - and his sales are flat. The stocking vaporstat supply house has 12% steam heat related sales increases. He has no idea why.

Double Duh.



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Mark Eatherton1

It shows...

that there IS a need for a national hydronic code standard. Too many people doing engineering while soldering. No consistency in system design. You can't police good workmanship on installation, but you can mandate minimum system design criteria. The problem would be in getting good enforcement from the AHJ.

A great case in point occured up in Van Couver BC. The locals got so frustrated with all the FBN'ers doing hydronics that they came up with a standard that is recognized by the AHJ, and is actually enforced to the T.

It covers design AND installation standards. The design is approved BEFORE the permit it issued, and the inspection is based on what the permit said would be installed.

I know no one here wants more government interference in their lives, but this is the only way I can see that it will work.

JMHO

ME

Warmfoot

My Wholesaler

I have one wholesaler that gets about 80% of my business. He is a one man outfit and all he sells is hydronics equipment. He ALWAYS has what I need, and if he doesn't, I have it within 3 days! He has been in this industry for over 20 years and he knows what the contractors need and want. The big supply houses have no clue on what to stock and don't give a crap about specialty products because they make there money on the volume products, (fittings, etc....) That is just my opinion

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics LLC

www.warmfeetusa.com

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Rudy

Point inFact....

I went to one of my regular wholesalers inquiring about Tekmar and an experienced salesman tells me " Oh those are commercial controls...all you need is a ratio reset honeywell". I walked out and found a Tekmar elsewhwhere. I'm in a big city market and it amazes me that large volume wholesalers aren't as in tune as the rest of you (us). We all know that in our trade among all others we can sell a "Yugo" or a "Ferrari". The least we can do is give the end user a Buick for cripes sake! I will not budge from this stance and I know my suppliers will fall in line. Others will benefit from my adamance(?) and the industry will benefit.

Three years after it's introduction HTP doesn't have a supplier for Munchkins in my area!

hvacsale

You Betcha!

Terrific idea Mr. Eatherton! An enforced standard for system design and implementation would actually give homeowners the oportunity to get what they think they're paying for. Just think of the confusion and contradictory information they experience....... Can you even count the times that a tailgater or well-meaning but un-informed contractor has told the homeowner to avoid a system design or equipment simply because they didn't understand the benefits or operation of a system? Combine that with the reality that 4 competant and thorough teams can come up with 4-equally good but completely different solutions to a problem!
What makes the field of applied physics so exciting is that you can combine so many different ways/approaches/techniques to a problem and still have to do the real job of designing for the PEOPLE. That's the big variable. Even a requirement such as what standards the system has been designed to, MJ 7 or 8 or perhaps clarification as to parameters like building construction or temperatures designed for can help out the customer.

Let's not forget, most buildings will not care if they are 60 degrees or 80, it's the people in it that will be calling if they didn't get what they expected!

Steve Rowe

Tom Meyer

Tilting at Windmills

FBN's, supply houses pushing product (numbers), builder/HO's just looking at the bottom line, "one week wonders", internet sales, DIY's, Big Boxes...makes you wonder why we're in this business.

Mark's right. Part of the problem can be fixed externally (through regulation), but the lion's share needs to be done internally. About the only thing we can do is try to educate our own people, educate the public, legislators, building inspectors, builders, architects, engineers, etc, about the importance of materials and installation standards and using professionals both for the design and the installation. I used the term "one-week wonder". That's someone who has been to a supplier school and now thinks they are a designer. The term "professional" means someone who is immersed in the industry with a combination of experience, education, and commitment.

Imagine a blind man buying a car. The salesman convinces him he is getting a Rolls Royce at a discount, and the blind man pays for Rolls Royce, but the saleman delivers a car that drives and rides like a Yugo. We can't stop low-ballers as long as the only thing the building owner understands about the system is the bottom line. What else do they know? It's not their fault.

We are doing what we can to change things. Bringing education to the consumer and to the professional. Keeping our own people up to speed. RadFest. Seminars. Education. Frustrating? You bet. Are we making headway? At a snail's pace, but we are moving.

Just call me "Don Quixote".

Tom Meyer
Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics Corp
www.precisionhydronics.com