How long will a Munchkin last?

R. Kalia

I was thinking of getting a Munchkin. But I read their warranty on HTP's web page, and it scared me. There is more emphasis on what is NOT covered; a tone of "we won't pay most claims" is evident. Labor is never covered; only 1 year for parts except for heat exchanger (7 yrs then prorated); lots of exclusions.

Is this a standard thing in the industry?

How can I trust that this relatively new technology, involving small lightweight components, will last 15 years, let alone 30 or 50? When was the first Munchkin sold to a homeowner, and how many of the earliest ones are still running? How much service did they require? I assume there is no public record of these things?

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

History

We started installing Munchkins in October 2001 and have installed about 25 since then.

There are always problems, some of which were our fault because we didn't pipe them properly. But once you get them installed and work out the bugs, they're fine.

So well you may ask when will we have to go back and replace the ones we first installed? That I can't tell you 'cause I don't know.

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Justin Gavin

Time Will Tell

We have installed several in the last couple of years. If installed properly they seem to run great and are very forgiving as far as venting is concerned.

I don't like the location of the new T-50's program board. It is pretty tight and hard to get to especially when you are setting up a vision package.

I think if they get annual service every year they would be a great little boiler. I think if you sell them and don't follow up they will have problems.

Their book doesn't show it but we add Y strainers on all the Munchkins we install.

I don't think they will last more than 10 years but I also tell my customers that as well so that there are no suprises. If they last longer I will be suprised (pleasently) but I really don't think they will.

The technology might have been around for 25 years but how long have the individual units been running out of those 25 years. I havn't seen to many condensing boilers last that long. Anyone else?

Sometimes simple is better when you look at the total efficiency over 20 years. Doesn't pay to charge twice as much for the boiler, than another 100 to 150 a year for service.

So if the boiler is lets say $2200 and a 10 year service contract is $1500 for a total $3700 give or take and I can do the same for about $2500 for a cast iron I ask myself is it worth the extra $1200? Will the customer see it and 10 years. And assume the HiEff boiler takes a crap I'd have to add another $2200 (probably inflate to $3500) So is it worth it? Not where I live unless you are a tree hugger.

They seem to work pretty good so far I must admit. But I have started seeing little problems that if the customer would get annual service wouldn't happen. But how many customers go for annual service? We only get 50% on the annual service.

Good Luck,

Justin

lchmb

I have personally only dealt with 3 munchkin boiler's...I am sad to say I have done an awful lot of work to those three boiler's...One I blame on the installer..The company made a number of mistake's on the gas line's and the hydronic side of thing's...One had a slight problem with the gas valve which was resolved..the third is still a headache and has about been rebuilt...new gas valve..on second blower assembly...issue's with the proving switch...I personally am not a big fan of the unit but it is fairly new to my area and who know's..maybe with more experience in this area they will get better...and on that note..it take's two hour's for me to get a gas valve due to the nearest supply house having part's being 60 mile's south..

hr

Mirror mirror on the wall

Lots of variables to consider. Set up and adjustments, exactly what are they inhaling, actual run time, etc etc.

What exactly is in the fuel we get these days?

I heard a rumor, from a LP company employee, that LP may be getting "stepped on" possibly the btu content lowered?? If so what is the method and mix additive? I heard more like 75,000 BTU per gallon? How, exactly does one test the BTU content. Seems only the oil companies have the "gear" to do this. Not that I don't trust "big oil" of course

Again this may be a RUMOR!! Is it possible down the road that our fuels, be they NG, LP, oil, get mixed? And with what? And how would high tech burners respond?

Back to the subject at hand. Next you have to consider the inside (waterside) of the HX. Yes even stainless has enemies! Certain water conditions will go after it. This is why there are so many grades and blends of stainless. Not to mention what YOU "put" inside the pipe and HX.

The food processing industry selects different alloy stainless based on what it will carry and the "speed" of transport.

I think checking the fluid and the outside of the HX, yearly, are critical, for the best life of any "thin" HX. Copper tube boilers have proved this theroy of mine, over and over

Then there is assembly methods, human or machine error. Raw material quality. Wall thickness decreases on the outside of the bend. If the "unbent" tube has wall thickness variation, this would be a question. Although from my visit to HTP several years ago, I saw the Munchkin HXs under incrediable test pressures on the ASME "bench" Far in excess of what cast or copper are required to be tested.

But keep in mind cast iron boilers have been around a long time and still new versions can, and do, fail. Hard to believe after all the years of casting experience!

An engineer friend of mine was involved in the Saturn engine plant construction. He claims the early V6 had a 30 some percent failure rate at the end of the assembly line. The complete engine went into dumsters fro recyclind. They didn't even disassemble them for inspection. Apparantly a problem with the "lost foam" casting methods turning out porous blocks?

Hard to find any manufacture that will provide labor allowance, especially at realistic labor rates. Buy an aftermarket extended warranty if this is a real concern, I suppose. Although often after two claims they back out or buy back the "paper"

You are asking a question that seems to me, unanswerable!

My crystal ball says 2- 15 years. But don't quote me. About in line with copper tube boilers,,but from what I have witnessed the efficiency factor make the big difference. If a combustion analyzer and flue temperature reading have any truth to them.

How well do you handle fear of the unknown

hot rod

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Mark Hunt

Munchkin


What a beating this boiler has taken!

Some folks are nervous. Must be the "Big Boiler Corporations" and I know how much some of you hate big corporations!

I have been installing Munchkins for quite a while now. I have had a few call backs, but HTP has backed uo the product EVERY SINGLE TIME!

Go look at the fine print on ANY boiler. You might be surprised.

Mark H

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leo g_13

mark

i think hot rod put it right, "the fear of the unknown". these munchkins are babies compared to some boilers i service (local made, steel boilers, that are over thirty years old). i have installed the munchkin, and actually have another coming up. i like the efficiency side of this appliance, and the size and weight for installation. but..... i do fear the unknown. as for payback, if gas prices keep on rising, then i think that installing a condensing appliance will be a no-brainer, even if you have to replace them every 10-15 years.

leo g

jw

Off the subject a little bit

I was wondering how many of us gladly buy a fuel sucking $40K SUV every five+/- years but expect our fuel sipping appliances to function flawlessly forever? Perhaps for some, the german heavy iron makes sense! Costs big bucks and burns more fuel.

hr

I'm looking at hybrids more

theses days. With gasoline projected to hit 2 maybe 3 bucks this summer...

The fear of the unknown may be overcome;)

If they weren't so darn ugly! Soudns like all the auto manufactures are going to offer sportier versions as well as small SUV diesel electrics within a year of two.

It usually comes down to the cost of energy when folks start shopping high efficiency be it cars or heating appliances.

hot rod

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Alan Bright

MANY facets to the jewel or PROJECT

> I have personally only dealt with 3 munchkin

> boiler's...I am sad to say I have done an awful

> lot of work to those three boiler's...One I blame

> on the installer..The company made a number of

> mistake's on the gas line's and the hydronic side

> of thing's...One had a slight problem with the

> gas valve which was resolved..the third is still

> a headache and has about been rebuilt...new gas

> valve..on second blower assembly...issue's with

> the proving switch...I personally am not a big

> fan of the unit but it is fairly new to my area

> and who know's..maybe with more experience in

> this area they will get better...and on that

> note..it take's two hour's for me to get a gas

> valve due to the nearest supply house having

> part's being 60 mile's south..

R. Kalia

irrelevant?

> I was wondering how many of us gladly buy a fuel

> sucking $40K SUV every five+/- years but expect

> our fuel sipping appliances to function

> flawlessly forever?


Well, from the seller's point of view, it may make sense that one should replace a boiler as often as a car; it must be frustrating that buyers don't see it that way. (By the way, my car is 12 years old and runs perfectly.)

But consumers aren't comparing boilers to cars; they are choosing between one boiler and another. That's just one of those facts of life. In fact, in my case, I'm choosing between a fancy modern condensing/modulating boiler and an old boiler that still runs. The first will cost me over $6000. The second was free with the house, but costs me maybe $400 in increased gas costs each year. I could invest the $6000 and make several hundred a year on the average plus the principal doesn't wear out the way a boiler does. In other words it's a wash; I won't save money either way, although either the contractor or the natural gas supplier will be making money off me.

I wish there were a clear choice. If the Munchkin were cheaper or had a better assurance of reliability, that would help make the choice easier.

Ted_5

Maybe 5 to 10 years

If it goes 10 you should see enough savings to pay for a new one, but not enough to pay the labor. 10 or less it would not be worth it[IMO] The construction of the heat X is a little scary to me[look at attached pic.] Look into the Viessmann Vitodens 200 that heat X wieghs as much as the whole "M" boiler wieghs. Check it out!

Ted

Alan Bright

MANY facets on the JEWEL or PROJECT....

We look at each individual Job to see what is the best equipment for the application. When we have used Munchkins
it was for specefic reasons, with great success so far, I might add. Sure we are hoping they will last 10-15 years or more hopefully. We have had a few little glitches, but no more than other higher tech equipment, BUT always well supported from HTP! Just pay attention to the details of the installaiton manual and current installaiton procedures, the Munchkins like most new heating equipmnet is not your Pa's or Grandps's BUICK any more! What other manufacturer out there will make senior management people availabe to there customers, Us installing contractors. I even have the number to Dave Davis's direct FAX.

We installed the FIRST ASME commercial Munchkin installation in the country, October of 'o1. How do you stack two atmospheric fired cast iron boilers in a 42inch x 6 1/2foot boiler room in a '58 apartment building? Stacking 2 munchkins on a steel stand, using the exsiting 10" B flue as a chase for exhaust / intake PVC piping, and a SS 60 inderect for domestic hot water needs tucked in the corner, that's how. Atmospheric fired equipment with derating for altitude and effec. losses would have required a 2' x 4' 4 hour rated chase out the roof 2 1/2 stories above, $ 1,500 just to tie in the curb to the foam roof. Total updates to building were estimated
at $ 45 K. plus permanent loss of square footage in two apartments, and they would have be vacated during the remodeling. Oh, and what do you do with all that combustion
air falling into a closed space when it is minus 20 that night?
The builidng owner said "it wasn't much of a gamble on the life of the Munchkins, when you look at the big picture." The only building modifcation he had to do was change the boiler room door to 1 hour rated steel one, this door opened to an emergency common egress corridor. This was all it took for this installaiton to come into compliance according to city Fire and builing officals! FIY, the nat gas supplier contacted the owner the following June, seems the drastic change in consumption verses degree days history had flagged something in there billing
system (can we say BIG BROTHER?). The owner explained he had some repair / updating done, still, the utility came in July and put a new gas meter on the building and checked fuel piping for "SAFETY".

Removed three Hydropulse A-100's in one house and replaced with 1 M-199 Munchkin, customer couldn't be happier, is near silence really GOLDEN?

How do you install 22' of horizontal combustion air and releif air ducting in a 100 year old historically protected
mansion with the boiler room in the very center of the building, or reline the failing 48' chimney penetrating a 12/12 roof, YOU DON'T, you slide 3" and 4" PVC between the joists! Zero clearence exhaust piping is a BIG plus.

At 7,800 feet altitude, nat gas supplier said we had 810 btu per cubic foot availabe. Consider that with altitude eff. deratings we needed 3"$$$ piping for 265', utility also said old nat gas distribution system was just about tapped,our homeowner would have to pay for his own lateral upgrade, and possibly other system upgrades if his new demand affected his neighbers. All he wanted was a radiantly heated 40 x 60 clear span shop and 5,400 square feet of driveway with a 8% grade with a little courtyard between builidngs. With staging 4 M-199 Munchkins we accomplished the task with 2" fuel supply piping and no other implications.

How many of you pro's out there have installed a boiler and a 60 gal indirect on a 30" x 36" foot print?
See: www.boilerstands.com

Had to replace a worn out copper tube pool heater, 2 of 2.
First one 11 years, 2nd one 9 years,(there are those out there that think these are space heating boilers??? Pools High flow LOW delta T, Space heating LOW
FLOW HIGH Delta T) heat exchanger looked like a misting hose. 15' x 48' pool in basement, 88 F 24/7. I have known the homeowner for 30+ years and did Hot water baseboard and plumging when house was built 22 years ago. (TOTAL quality project, 14 heating zones, each bdrm own zone and bathroom, many other extras. Even did all DWV in no-hub cast iron for quiet operation, 3of bath's directly over living room, great room, kithen, formal dining. He expressed concerns about spiking LP costs and 20 year old
cast iron boiler since the pool heater had failed. I told him some other options are out there. We ended up with a
SS flat plate heat exchanger for pool heating (lifespan ?),
reconfigured heating plant to primary / secondary with M-199 as primary. Return water after pool HX is usaully about 120 F. 22 year old Burnham for back-up (house is 40 miles east of Denver, ever heard of Plains Blizzards?) or as 2nd stage firing if primary circuit drops below 150 F for periods exceeding 30 minutes. Side wall venting, sealed combustion (used foam weather stripping on
edges of Munchkin cabinet to improve seal and reduce infiltration of chlorine laden air from pool room adjacent to boiler room), Modulating power burner combustion, small
foot print, the M-199 is sitting in the space previously occupied by the copper tube pool heater with space left over. The homeowner couldn't be happier, well into the 2nd
winter swears his LPG fuel consumption, many $$$, is 1/2 of what it was using the origional 390K pool heater and 300K c.i. combination. He keeps wondering how many $$$ went up the 12" 34' flue over the last 22 years. We are currently considering the best way to integrate the Vision
control into the heating plant. Even if he only gets 10 years out of the first Munchy he knows it will have payed for itself many times over, he also says "who knows, by then there might be one even better!"

There are just many things a particular peice of equipment might bring to the table; the cost of the meat is only part of what it may contribute to the quality, satisfaction, presentation, personal satisfaction, of the WHOLE dining experience. These are some of jewels we have polished using the facets a Munchkin has to offer.
Thanks,
Big AL

P.S. DOUBLE THAT ON READING OTHER EQUIPMENTS FINE PRINT. AND THEN TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THEIR ACTUAL POSITON / RESPONSE.
DEFINETLY CAN BE AN "EDUCATIONAL" READ AND EXPERIENCE

Troy_3

How Long?

We have installed about 150 munchkins and still love them. I haven't had to replace any yet but the oldest install has just seen it's 3rd winter hopefully many more. I will say we do only radiant low temp heating. In our playground I bet they will fair better than the CI boilers I'm competing with that go in with no low temp boiler protection. I'm amazed how many jobs I lose to supposed professionals who install a CI boiler with no mixing feeding a complete radiant house. A wholesaler just told me that the concern I share is overrated. He claims he has kept track and none of the systems he has designed in this fashion has had condensation problems. WOW! I wonder if Utica boiler shares his opinion? Where do you CI boiler people stand? Do you care if your boilers are seeing extended wet time? Am I overstateing the concern? Are we going to see a lot of CI junk that no one wants to stand behind due to misapplication, misinstallation? I will stick with condensing. It fits what we do! It isn't an easy question to answer. Time will tell. Old faithful may not be faithful in today's system designs. Be careful!

R. Kalia

faint praise?

&> I will say we do only

> radiant low temp heating. In our playground I bet

> they will fair better than the CI boilers I'm

> competing with that go in with no low temp boiler

> protection.


That's not a very high standard!

Troy_3

Faint Praise?

What do you mean Chuck? I feel we hold a high standard! What standard are you refering to? I think Munchkin boilers with their current control platform are tough to beat. What do you feel rivals them? A CI boiler with boiler protection and mixing may be good but you don't get the benefit of the high efficiency. I hanen't seen a modulating CI boiler that will minimize short cycling. You have now complicated the system to the point of a condensing boiler without the savings in fuel. Is this a cust. benefit? So Chuck educate us. I'm always ready to learn.

kevin coppinger_4

couldn't find boilerstands.com?



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Alan Bright

boilerstands...

K. you might try again, I tried it just now and it came up,
Then tried it with a GOOGLE search and it came up there also. I think they are going to hook-up with Dan to get with the manufacturers link.
Thanks
AB

R. Kalia

\"Munchkin better than sharp poke in eye\"?

In your previous post you compared (a) Munchkin and (b) cast-iron with no low temperature protection, used for radiant low temp applications.

You said (a) will last longer than (b).

Of course it will; you're comparing a Munchkin to an unprofessionally installed cast-iron boiler. That's faint praise.

Let me know if you want an even longer explanation.

John Abbott

I am always impressed.......

by someone who is a big enough person to admit making mistakes and learning from them.And to top it all off admitting they don't know something. Very refreshing, way to go Alan!!!!

John

hr

K, are you

looking for a stand for a boiler? I have used water heater stands. The square version is 21X21" and holds 650 lbs. Most plumbing wholesalers have some brand.

Also air handler stands come in a variety of adjustable sizes. Fairly inexpensive to purchase. HVAC wholesalers should have a line on these.

hot rod

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nathan gugenheim

apts

any pics of your 58 apt job?

munchkin-man

now thats what we are talking about

We stand behind our products and proudly.

Troy_3

Munchkin rules

I stand behind your boilers too. Regardless of what chuckles perceives. I'm still waiting for his advice of a better product. We use Munchkin and Viessmann exclusively. That's how I show my confidence in a product. I'm still waiting for a recommendation of something more reliable. I guess Chuckles prefers the poke in the eye. Till that perfect boiler appears I'll stick with the great equipment that has great backup. Thanx HTP. Oh Chuckles by the way-Pokin yourself in the eye can blur your vision. And I don't mean Vision 1,2 or 3.