Energy savings redux[or not]

Lurker_2

To go at it more politley than the last guy did:

There are a lot of really sharp hydronic guys here, I would trust their blind screaming guesses more than any of my calculations. I would, and I think others would also, like to get the benefit of your collective experience on how to best spend money on heating system efficiency. The parameters for my personal case:

A well insulated addition, 1800 total sq ft, 1000 ft of garage radiant slab, 800 ft of wood floor radiant.

Oil fired.

Sealed combustion

Through wall venting unless there is a really good reason not to.


Design load MAX around 45k btu, that could be high and I could re run my numbers, but since I can't find a boiler that small anyway, I don't see that it matters[please correct me if I am wrong]

Now, I am not going to buy an 80 percent efficient boiler, but I am trying to decide on the relative value of things like an 87 percent vs 84 percent, outdoor reset, triple pass vs single pass. Oil is going up and I can make assumptions about that.

I do have one statement to make: It is ALWAYS about money. Some people are lucky enough to have wealthy clients, but most don't. I don't in my business. Even smart wealthy clients pay attention to money. They didn't get rich by blowing it.

Now it doesn't seem that outragious to ask what kind of payback is to be expected for various expenditures. If a Buderus or Viessmann is just a better boiler that will give you less trouble, fine, but wouldn't you expect the payback to be in lower maint/repair bills? [I expect the US builders will dispute that assumption]

So is there any opinion out there on the relative value of the german boilers vs the best of the USA? HEll, I 'll buy american if it makes sense.

Buderus for instance sells there electronic seperate, and a good chunk of change if I remember.

Any experience with the monitor FCX?

Are you guys completely unwilling to discuss the price of things. No one care how much money you make, but RELATIVE cost is the point here.

Alright, that's the limit of my typing for tonight

J.C.A._3

You ask some great questions!

Some personal observations....

#1, It's the stingy man who spends the most. Do it once, do it right and move on.(believe me when I say this:WE want to see you, as much as you want to se us. Waving while driving by is always nice)

#2, most people think anything but sane, when they spend 24,000$(average price) for a VEHICLE, that MAY last them , say.... 10 years. (although most won't last that long.)They expect a piece of heating equipment to last FAR longer, for a fraction of the cost, and keep them comfortable.

#3, Base your equipment decision on the equipment the INSTALLER is most comfortable with. In the big picture, he's the one that ultimately has to prove its worth.If you have any doubts about the quality of the installer, ASK FOR REFERENCES!Most folks will spout the virtues of their new heating system, and be willing to give you the numbers AND the (more important)comfort factor.

#4, European VS. American, See #3. Quality is priceless. The quality of an install is worth more than a lower price in the long run. Most boilers I install cost a bit more up front, but I will be there for a shorter period of time to change a component,or repair a problem.I think it's worth the extra cost.

I'm sure you're going to read a whole lot of different opinions on this subject, and these are mine. Chris

Lurker_2

re:

I understand the logic, and appreciate it, my only quibble is that if I find what I believe is the 'right thing' I will find an installer for it.
I think I am pretty clear that I am not looking for a 'cheap' boiler. I will not, however waste my hard earned cash for no reason. Not now or over the next ten years in fuel.

J.C.A._3

Keith,

Again....See #3. Chris

Tony_8

i agree

I seem to follow the same guys around and for the same mistakes over and over. Doesn't matter what they install, it's got a flaw. They give up (it can't be something they did) and in I come. Very little actual junk equipment out there, a whole lotta junk created by bad installs.

All installers are NOT created equal.

Brian_13

#3.....

I think you really need to understand why the installer should be the one suggesting what they "like" to install. See, you may find BOILER BODACIOUS, and fall in love. But if very few installers know it, then they'll pad the install price. They HAVE TO to protect themselves. ANYONE will install it for you. But how do you know they just didn't pad the price of install? And what if you DO find the ONE installer that speciallizes in that boiler? Great! But if his 3 generation company gets bought out next year...you are scr_wed for service now! K.I.S.S.

Ken_8

I have never personally

installed a Monitor FCX but know the burner inventor personally and have a love of the gas job (MZ). The equipment is first class and the support excellent.

I had the priveledge of going to Germany with Bola Kamath, for ISH a few years ago. Bola designed the oil burner and is well known in the cutting edge burner design biz. I saw the unit at a few trade shows and found the understated elegance of design of the boiler to be very impressive. The AFUE is the best I ever heard of in an oil unit.

When I build my retirement house in VT that will be the heart of the system. Unless of course Viessmann makes a 137% AFUE chromed titanium boiler smaller than a breadbox and lighter than a can of beer.

Kidding aside, I think you'll be happy with FCX. However, I would definitely get referals of those who already have one and over a couple of years of experience with one.



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

R. Kalia

Maseratis and Viessmanns

In the snake-oil thread, a couple of people said that they installed boilers that people were proud of, the customers sheperded their guests downstairs to show off the boiler. There's the problem. You spend money on a Maserati, you can show off while doing something you would do anyway, i.e. drive down the street. You buy a Viessmann, you have to lure them to your basement. What a pain.

For what you spend on a Viessmann, you can replace your cheap boiler to or three times if necessary, but it won't be necessary. And since no boiler is over 100% efficient, you don't get payback on a fancy European boiler. Here's the similarity between a Viessmann and a Maserati: the car dealer, and the HVAC contractor, both make more money if they sell a more expensive unit.

Uni R

Buderus G115-21

Get a Tekmar controller for it and whatever burner is most prevalent in your area (I prefer Riello). Second choice would be a V8 or small Crown with the same setup. Why go condensing on an oil burner when you are starting at 87% efficiency with super long life components? This combo gets you the best cast iron money can buy, combined with a super reliable burner and the best name in controls.

Kal Row

condensing reason?

because it's the best fit for your low temp application - with 90f return water - why not suck every drop of heat from the flue gas? Old style heat-exchangers don’t do very well with continuous cool water return temps

and you might also want to run your domestic hot water off it, with one of those stainless steel tanks with a lifetime warranty (it’s nice – not having to change a water heater every ten years – not to mention more efficient – like 10% more, demonstrable)

nevertheless – if you are not doing condensing, then, get the cheapest easiest to service oil burner in your area

By the way for the wood section I recommend the prefabed aluminized wood/composite sub – that has slots for the PEX tubing, like for eg zurn thermal track http://www.zurn.com/pages/catalog.asp?ProductGroupID=137&OperationID=17#p3205

being that you are doing the garage - you need to read zggi's article in this month’s PM mag,
http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,117858,00.html

i strongly agree with a tekmar control setup,
'http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/ - tons of knowledge on their site


and before you are all sold on oil – remember, that it is a liquid fuel device, and by definition needs more maintenance – see attached diag

Lurker_2

re:

Lurker_2

re:


Now I got a number for a biasi that somewhat jives with the number for the buderus I got a while ago. msrp of something less than 2500US, boiler gun and vent, with the implication tehy may be discounted by some margin. Now is the veismann that much more expensive? Is someone selling quality oil boilers for 800 bucks that I don't know about?

Joe_13

Any other factors in the equation?

You're getting a boiler just for the addition? What about the rest of the house? Any domestic HW needs? I ask cause your heat load might be greater or it might be a good time to replace the other boiler also. But if small is what you need, the Biasi B-10 (www.qhtinc.com) has a small 60K BTU net and Buderus G-115 21 around 70K BTU are some of the smallest 3 pass boilers I know of. The FCX looks complicated with it's 2 heat exchangers. Never saw one installed and I doubt it uses a Beckett/Riello/Carlin burner that everyone's worked on. Also very pricey. Just put a buffet tank on the boiler. Check the Wall, there's a recent thread on there with some great comments from the guys here.

Lurker_2

Existing structure uses a monitor mp41. It would be a bear to install radiant in that space for various reasons, and the monitor uses a tank a year or so in New England for 1100 sq ft. i will need to provide for 2 baths worth of hot water and am also investigating that soluton. Most in the trade seem to push the indirect tanks. Probably a good system. Existing hw tank is 80 feet from the furthest new bath, so i think it will be out of hot water before the water ever gets there! Anyway existing kitchen, bath, laundry will run off of old hw tank, may go tankless in ~5 years when the old one is due to poop out.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Keys to Thermal Efficiency

Research and trust your calculations--but there's often some wisdom in the "blind screaming" if you know where to look...

1) Maximize the radiation.

2) Minimize the temperature.

3) Introduce proportionality.

Why number 1? Because the more the space is heated via radiation the more people tend to be comfortable at a lower air temperature.

Why number 2? You can use the most efficient appliances to their best advantage and lower supply temperature almost always means more conduction (efficient) and less convection (inefficient) has been used to transfer the heat from the water.

Why number 3? Because it will AUTOMATICALLY maximize radiation and minimize temperature for a given output device.

To me, the greatest benefit comes from introducing proportionality. Yes, it does increase initial cost but it will continue to save you fuel $$$ and keep you more comfortable.

J.C.A._3

Chuckles. Great analogy,

But one thing that EVERYONE has to keep in mind is that the heating equipment is supplying a payback. The Maserati you just drove off the lot, lost 10,000$ just by taking possesion of it and driving it off the lot.

The higher the price of fuel goes, the quicker the "payback period" of the new heating system will be considered "equitable". (big word,but think about it.) If you plan to spend more than a few years in the home being fitted with a GREAT heating system, it will pay for itself.(unlike the vehicle that will lose its value, unless you put it on blocks in the garage, and wait for the "market"to make it an investment)


I'll say it again....Quality IS priceless. The money you spend on a heating system can save you money in the long run.If you can think about 10 years down the road, as opposed to 2 years down, you'll be paying yourself for the COMFORT you provide, and adding value to the price of your home. Any questions? Chris

Uni R

Payback is shortsighted

Payback is a questionable tool for making financial decisions because it doesn't take into consideration the depreciation of the assets involved. It is better to look at the overall return on investment. The tough part here is having a good handle on how long various parts of the system will last. Will a Buderus boiler last 15 years or 30 years. If we knew that a certain boiler only had a projected lifespan of 6 years we'd never buy it in the first place.


I would still do an amortization and try and use what you figure will be minimal lifespans for each part of the system. Oil tanks are 20 years, piping is 40, controls might only be 10, the burner may be 15, the boiler may be 20. Then the fuel assumptions enter the picture... Wait, it gets too tough to calculate. Get something that is reliable and comfortable, like JCA pointed out.... :-)

Joe_13

Keith

No prices. Plus you're forgetting install, controls, circ, etc. etc, etc. your 45K BTU load would not be enough to fire an indirect, so you'll need a 70 to 90K min., More if the whole world wants to shower at once. That monitor runs K1 fuel? I'm not sure if you went to straight K-1 for an oil burner. Less BTU's then #2 oil and might be a bit harsh on the pump (not as oily). I've mixed K1 with #2 to help prevent gelling in outdoor tanks, but not run pure K1 all the time. This mix might not be good for the monitor though. So you have LP/gas already for the old water heater? You mentioned tankless. If you realy need hot water you'll need nat. gas or LP. If you go LP, a simple 90+ boiler (maybe wall hung) might be a cheaper solution.

Lurker_2

Understood, 45k is MAX heatloss, 70 degrees, dey don make boilers that small anyway. My inderstnading is that worst case I am short of hot water or have a dip in temp if I want 5AM showers on my design day, am I wrong?

I had originally thought it might be more efficient to have a closely sized boiler and a tankless propane water heater, since they are pretty cheap these days, but I don't know which is the better idea. Comments?

K1 is used with great success all sorts of places, in standard oil burners. it is only very slightly lower in fuel value and no, the monitor cannot take anything but K1. Besides, I refuse to have 3 fuels on the property. How much do you suppose one mistake by the oil truck guy would cost?

Propane is always hideously expensive, it is fine for small uses, cheaper than electic, but heat would be a nightmare. There is no point at which a propeane furnace is cheaper to run than even expensive K1

Sorry, am I breaking a rule about prices here? didn't see it anywhere. No one is trying to cut anyones margins, it is about relative cost. Boiler is but one part of a system, but far and away the most expensive part. You won't find me whining about a cheaper source for schedule 40.....

Joe_13

I agree about 3 fuels

Stick with K1, just OK it with burner maker. I would highly recommend using this design that was brought up in the buffer tank thread:
http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,78589,00.html

Reason being that the design would require a more common min size for a low mass boiler (70-90K). Burnham, Thermodynamics, Columbia, Laars, etc. all make cheaper steel low mass boilers that could heat a reverse indirect hot water tank:
Ergomax (www.ErgoMax.com),
Turbomax (www.thermo2000.com),
Dunkirk Artesian (www.dunkirk.com)

This would give you the hot water plus a buffer tank that would feed BTU's to the radiant system. When the 20 gal of hot boiler water cooled in the indirect the boiler would come on and cycle for more then just 2 minutes. Fewer and longer burner cycles are the key to saving fuel and the boiler's life. You would still need mixing controls to control the lower water temp for the radiant.

Once you spend money on this, there's no need for a tankless which has limited hot water flow.

Lurker_2

Wow, I'm going to have to study that, anytime I have to read through something more than twice, I know I'm out of my depth

Lurker_2

boiler temp

That system looks really interesting, but it brings up some questions for me. I am running straight radiant, no higher temp loops. Do I not want to keep my return temps low, and generally the system temps low but avoiding condensing?

This makes me wonder if I run the system perfectly for radiant if it might give me problems with DHW, or end up with a system that is not optimized for anything.
Anyway, that is well beyond my ability to understand, hell I'm just trying to sort out boilers.

Joe_13

The indirect is the primary loop

Here, 20 gal of boiler water is kept at 140-160 degrees. Your low mass boiler and radiant are each a secondary zones. The boiler zone pumps BTU's back into the "BTU battery". I would leave the boiler as a cold start. Only firing when that tank drops under 140, so no condensing problem for the boiler since it's isolated from the radiant secondary loop. The radiant loop would still need mixing with the loops return water to keep the water it pulls from the tank at your design temp. The insulated tank will sit with 160 degree boiler water durring the summer and and the boiler will fire a few times durring the day as you draw cold domestic water through the copper heat exchanger to pick up heat. Even at 140 degree min, the DHW could get very hot, so an anti-scalding valve is used to only allow 120-130 water up to the faucets and sinks. The inverse indirect is just a big tankless coil pulled out of a boiler that has high stand by loss and get's stuck in a thermos bottle instead. Others also feel there's less chance of the water picking up bacteria and that sulphur smell since the water is heated as soon as it hits the coil, not sitting stagnant and warm in the tank untill you use it.

Kal Row

keith - i have been watching you suffer with the info oveload,

once you in this deep...you have to go in deeper in order to swim out, without some serious knowledge, you will never be able to separate the fact from experience based "fiction" – experience is an overwhelming teacher even if the lesson taught is wrong!!!
You are going to get some really strong conflicting opinions here, most of which are based on real world experience – and our perception of your needs

It’s why lot's of us come across as less than honest to the customer, there is just too much knowledge to impart - you either pay a PE to design the sys for you or become a rudimentary PE by reading their books

you need to read books by Dan Holohan on this site eg

How Come? Hydronic heating questions we've been asking for 100 years (with straight answers!)
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-19


and "the" book Modern Hydronic Heating, 2nd Edition by
John Siegenthaler, P.E. at http://www.hydronicpros.com/Publications/MHH2/MHH2.htm

hydronicpros also sells some cool software that makes designing it easy

trust me, the money spent on books/software in this business has almost instant payback,
every body here is trying to help – I have watched this and your other thread and even stuck my two cent it, but we don’t know the real situation, there is always something the customer leaves out, thinking that it’s irrelevant, and it’s usually the piece that changes everything, so I think you are ready for the next stage in the learning curve

Lurker_2

re:

Thanks

This is actually what I prefer, lots of information. Lots of information has the potential to become knowledge.

An example of why I try to learn about things likle this:

Happens to be a plumber, doesn't mean anything

In first buying this same house, it needed a bathroom. I decided to slice off a piecs of a former entryway, ending up with a bath 3'8" x10' I laid out the fixtures with a shower stall on one end, a sink about in the middle, and the toilet on the far end, on the end wall, not on the long wall. Well, the plumber, nice guy, nice work, says that the toilet was juuuust over the 8 feet from the vent[ I knew it would be close]so we had to put it on the long wall, which means of course that your knees are practically on the wall sitting on the pot. Sigh. Then, instead of running the vent where planned, next to the shower in the 8 inch empty space, he ran it behind the sink, just 4 feet from the toilet. So now my medicine cabinet is mounted on the surface instead of flush and the toilet isn't where I wanted it. The moral of this story, get all the information, plan carefully, make the contractors follow through with your vision. Truth is this guy though it was wierd not having the fixtures lined up and thought he was doing me a favor.

I appreciate everyone's input, it will all end up making my house better.