boiler replacement forold radiant system

clammy

Had a call a while back 6 section hw peerless about 30 yeadrs old shot out a cannon nobodies really given it a good cleaning .First i found the chamber size decreased to from the origal combustion chamber ,the boiler was burning a.75 noz it should be burning if i remenber a 1.75 at max.Durning the cleaning which took me 2 1/2 hours i discovered things that made the matters worse besides the super underfiring thingalso 3 of the 6 section where coated with lime so much that a soot sword could not penatrate the lime build up after cleaning as best i could and trying to increase the firing rate which i could not do i got her going the best i could the chimmey was pouring out white smoke from the section leaks i advised the HO to get a new boiler because this one is shot .Finally to the question this home was a custom build by a company which owed all the surronding land they build homes out of oyster shell from oyster reefs quite weird this home is built on a rock in the living room one whole wall is part of the mountain and the rest of the home is a mix of mostly windows andstone not much insulation or any place to put it either.The one zone is copper slab radiant and the other zones are baseboard and alot of it what im wondering is what would be the best way to pipe this radiant zione with auto or manual temp mixing and system water temp design the H O is quite the tool never wants maintance never believes any thing any body shows or tells him the only time he calls is when he needs service because he has no heat and it,s usally because he hadn't had it cleaned in a year or 2 or 3 .

Joe_13

No cast iron pin boilers

Something easy to clean. Buderus would take the cold return temp better. Just simple outdoor reset. I wouldn't bother with mixing. Keep the whole system at the same temp. Low limit of 140 should not bother the BB if he's got a lot of it. P/S piping of course.

Ken_8

The radiant side is

not a problem. Copper piping in concrete floors can run at 180. At that temperature however, a bare floor would be too hot for bare feet. However, once the rugs and 3/4" thick underpad go on - you may need 180 to be warm!

A simple P/S pump with 100-160 3-way mixing valve may be the radiant ticket. The fact that they actually heat the house with a .75 nozzle however should be a major "heads-up"!

You might want to think like this... A .75 has done the job evidently for some time. The boiler has much of the HX coated with insulating soot and scale. The boiler is probably only rated at the high 70's steady state - making true AFUE around 60.

Do the load calcs - or use the .75 X 140,000 BTU/gallon gross input as a max input new boiler size and take it DOWN in size from there.

Boiler "shock" should be of no concern.

You might want to do a 30 p.s.i. hydro-static test on the floor before getting married to this one. The floor leaks may have precipitated the boiler's!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Joe_13

Good Point Ken

There might be a great deal of O2 in this system from floor leaks. Prepare for a radiant abandon ship!

clammy

.75 not doing it

The promblem is the .75 ain't doing it this unit has been running non stop since they turned the heat on it doesn't even cycle so i know it needs to fire more as for rugs and stuff it ain't going to happen the floor with the radiant is polished stone they will never cover it i haven't been able to see the second floor and the baseboard loop but the home has a tressel over pass the connect one side of the home to the other so when you drive in you pull under this over head bridge i know when ever i've been there the pumps never cycle off as for the pressure test on thecopper radiant loop i probaly will do it but i've done a quick test and the boiler pressure doesn't drop with the water feeder shut so it's a good sign plus if there was a leak the water quality leave a whole lot to be desired and the pressue to cause you only have about 15 to 20 lbs of pressure .I replaced the boost pump set up years ago and it somewhat inproved it but not alot these homes and everything in them where built by some wacky engeenerrs years ago plus this home is way on top of a mountain only about 30 ft below the community water tower it's a real rub goldberg mechincal set up everything andeverywhere corners where cut.Ifigure that if they had a slab leak the boiler would have already been shot by make up water or by dry fire.So what's the reaction to a manual tempering for the radiant and 180 for the bb also where removing the oil fired HWH and putting ina indirect fired unit with no priority i,m trying to get them to go with a buderus and i'll install a LWCO anddual aquasta controller to maintane water temp and give me quicker domestic recoupe thanks for the ideas and helpfully comments peace

hr

Might be wise

to run a heat loss calc on that baby. Built on rock, lots of glass. Makes me nervous.

I'd also make sure they understand no warranty written or implied on that old copper radiant.

Might be thinking of plan B as you calc and design

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

clammy

thanks

Thanks for all the input and hot rod your right i'm gonna try toget there this week and take some measurements and run a heat lose.I'm hoping to sell them a buderus with a buderus tank .It's going to be a hard heat loose calc this home is built quite weird you would have to see it to believe it the boiler sit on a poured shelve about 3 ft high with less room then i usally work with which means no room really have to do some thinkin also super small boiler room door there's a outside entrance but you have to lug the boiler thruogh some heavy wooded and rocky terrain a relly tough hump again thanks for the input and peace

clammy

needs help

I checked it out yesterday the HO doesn't turn the radiant on because then they get no heat on the second floor after measuring the baseboard i can see why the .75 noz just about is able to heat that zone huge heat loses with 3 of the 4 outside walls being just about a little over 50% glass or sliders and the last wall actually being part of the mountain exposed in both level 1 st and 2 nd floor .THere's also an encloseed walk way from one side to another that 4 ft wide by 65 ft all glass both sides.The radiant in the floor seems to be set at 120 throuhg holby vavles 2 zone radiant 1 loop 1 1/14 and a smaller single loop of 3/4 on the by and by it is not copper upon closer inspection with a light it all steel in the slap i checked there water bill in gallons it was about 2500 gallon per month did a quick pressure test on the piping and had no drop in pressure with the boiler at 20 psi.the HO says they have no money lost it all in the stock market still have 2 new cars so we will have to see ain't doing it for nothing and if they don't plan to change when it's downsized to a .50 noz and the 100 ft 2 nd floor BB loop don't cut it ort the already dripping section give way they will be on there own big time P.S. all there water lines are also slab feed the cieling on the 1 st floor is completly wood finished with solid 6 x 14 beams and a 9ft cieling and a sunking livin rm with a 13 ft cieling got to see it what a nightmare to heat thjanks again and peace

Earthfire

Is it a Frank L. Wright Design?

Sounds like one of F.L.Wright's design disasters. In my opinion the "Dean of American Architecture" produced and inspired some visually and astatically gorgeous buildings. But his structural and mechanical designs and executions leave much to be desired. Building with structural defects, leaking roofs, and none functional and or substandard mechanicals seem to be a hallmark of his structures. Unfortunately it seems that the construction industry still operates on his legacy of flash over substance. As some of the multi million dollar rebuild/restores of his designs prove that the astetecs can be achieved with sound and functional structural and mechanical systems, it just proves the old adage that there is always money to do it over when there isn't enough to do it right the first time. Question for the builders out there: When is the construction industry going to start doing it right the first time every time?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not always the fault of the builders...

...when you're talking about designers/architects/engineers who are "experimenting". I've read that builders frequently tried to point out problems to Mr. Wright who was a person easily enraged. If builders continued to complain they were fired--so they kept their mouths shut and did what he said knowing it would fail.

Must be interesting to have a gigantic radiant heat sink in a house full of glass. Doesn't sound like the best situation for a radiant floor panel...