Biological problems in hydronic systems

George_10

you have seen biological problems in Hydronic Systems? If you did, what did you do and do you have any idea what caused them?

We talk about corrosion and scale all the time, but I wondered if this is a problem too?

Dan Peel

you mean..

Anabolic growth - the grey stuff, algae growth - the green stuff, yellowish stuff that's as hard as glass, the powdered white stuff and the chunky white stuff that grows like barnacles...... it's all out there. I use filtration for the thick stuff and CLT545 for chasing acidity and O2. George, do you have a test kit available and are your products available in Canada? Thanks....... Dan

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hr

Twice in my carrer

once in my own shop just a few years ago. I had a 500 gallon tank with a foam lid, as a solar storage tank. Weeks after the temperatures got in the useable 100- 115° range smells also developed, along with a slime layer!

They got worse by the day until it had a vague sewer smell. Like a floor drain trap gone dry! Tried a few "brews" but decided to scrap the whole tank and park a couple motorcycles in it's place

10 or 12 years ago we had an iron bacteria in a radiant system. Same symptoms with the pungent odor! As I understand bacteria it starts eating "stuff" in your system. Seems to like organics and will start with left over flux, cutting oils, and other easy picking.

Then it moves on to rubber type consumabales. Expansion tank diaphrams, pump gaskets (possibly Propress o-rings , then on to the actual ferrous parts! Cast iron, being soft is the next spot for a free lunch.

The actual septic smell that defines bacteria problems has been described to me as the bacteria "farts" As the bacteria eats it gives off gas. Probably a more tech name for it, I'll bet.

The usual tell tale difference from a bacteria, and regular corrosion, is this memorable smell!

The best way to prevent it is to deny the bacteria a food source. Hense the need to flush your systems of potential food sources! Plain water is not adequate, water is getting weird lately, the bug may be introduced by the fill water! Or maybe PAH is unleashing bugs to prove a point Just kidding, just kidding.

In this case the well driller had the bacteria living on his drill rods and points. He was transmitting the bacteria from well to well as he drilled. It also was attacking his casings.

A U of U professor finally solved the puzzle, the tools were sanatized, along with our radiant systems, and all lived happily ever after.

Clean you systems, gentlemen! Ridding a system of iron bacteria took an act of Congress, and costly chemical flushes. Practice safe sex and safe hydronicising:)

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Aidan (UK)

Pseudomonas

Pseudomonas is present in mains water supply and can colonize heating and chilled water closed circuits. It forms a slime/film and can block valves, strainers and pipes. I know of it, but have no personal experience of it.

See;

http://www.envirocheck-uk.com/watertestingpseudomonas.htm

PS I hadn't noticed you were in the water treatment business, George. I hope the earlier post didn't come across as teaching granny to suck eggs. Not that granny should be sucking eggs nowadays of course, with salmonella and all that.

I was involved in a fault-finding exercise on a chiller replacement project which wasn't performing in the summer. Preliminary checks showed the flow rate at about 60% of the design. It was thought this might be pseudonomas blocking heat exchangers, pipes, valves, etc., since 100% flow rate had been certified in the commissioning data some 6 months earlier. I hadn't heard of pseudomonas before and did some reading on it. Emergency biocidal dosing was being planned.

A pressure loss calculation then showed the primary pumps were only capable of producing about 50% of the differential pressure required to achieve the design flow. This was confirmed by on-site measurements. The old chillers had tube-in-shell heat exchangers, the new ones had brazed plate heat exchangers (higher resistance), but the original primary pumps were still being used.

The commissioning technician had misunderstood primary/secondary pumping, believing that the flow rate in a secondary loop equalled the flow in the primary loop. The sum of some flow rates equalled another flow-rate, when it shouldn't. It appeared that the commisssioning data had been falsified.

Meanwhile, a consulting engineer had been employed. The consultant engaged a commissioning contractor to measure the flow rates. Unfortunately, they sent the same technician, since he was familiar with the job.

I had the primary pumps changed and the design flow rate was achieved, for the first time ever. Pseudomonas was innocent. More a case of pseudo-pseudomonas.

Mark Eatherton1

Things that live in pipes...

I've seen nice thick dense layers of mold growing in the glycol reserve tanks on some closed loop heating systems.

I've seen reports of bacteriological growth in closed loop heating systems with no 02 barrier.

I did a "staple up" experiment in my own home using PB tubing. It didn't work real well because the water heater couldn't get the temps above 140 degrees F. When I finally decided to get serious about RFH, I took the PB out to replace it with the current plate system. When I pulled the PB down, a bluish green slime came out of the insides of the pipe. I decided then and there that open loop systems were not for me or my customers. I never did find out what was growing in the slime, but it almost had a ghostly glow to it...

I've also read reports of bacteriological probelms with closed loop fire protection systems, and as HR said, I too have experienced the blood red waters of iron consuming bacteria in a closed loop PB heating system.

Why do you ask? Is Rhomama going to be brining out a new bacteriacide in the future?

ME

George_10

Dan

We can ship into Canada. We have test kits for some of our products. Send me a private e-mail with your address and I will send you a complete company package of literature.

George_10

We have them now

And we are always on the hunt for new products that we can sell in this unique industry. Our company is sincerely trying to develope a presence in this industry where we are known for quality products that work and customer support that is top of the line.

We have the experience from our industrial side to solve almost any water chemistry problem.

Jim Eastman

Microbial growth in a closed loop system

I attended a session on water quality presented by HeatLink, Canada. In that session, Landon (their Chemist) indicated that his research showed that propylene glycol at less that a 19% concentration would support microbial growth. Once you get above 19%, the sugar concentration is too high to support microbial growth. So, I keep the glycol concentrations at 25% or above when there is a need for gylcol. (this phenomenon is similar to why mold doesn't grow in a jar of honey that has been opened ) Hope this helps.

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing
Boulder, CO

hr

True, to a point Jim

Not sure why you would mix that low. But if you do, the inhibitor package needs to be beefed up.

Companies that custom mix glycols would know to do this.

Keep in mind the inhibitor package in hydronic glycols is in there to "help" the water component that you blend in, more than the actual glycol. You get more O 2 scavangers, ph buffers, etc, etc mixed in with lower dilution rates. At least you should Or, like your fellow mentioned, you are inviting problems.

Any glycol supplier can fix you up with a boost kit if you need. And one for your glycol too

I think Dow recommends no lower than 25% glycol to water, even with their HD series which is inhibitor enhanced.

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