Need technical advice on New installation

Al Smith

New WeilMcL GV4 system (1)gurgles canstantly and (2)on end of the single zone (where the bedrooms are) temp. is anywhere from 6 - 12 degrees cooler and the house on cold days won't come up to temp.(7 mo. old baby has to sleep with us on cold days b/c it gets so cold.)

Just had the system installed late spring. GV4 with indirect hot water. Was really excited about getting rid of the in-ground oil tank and converting to an efficient affordable American made boiler.

Part 1: House is one zone the water heater another. Seemed to work great during the summer (for water)and fall/early winter. But, then it started gurgling loudly. Contractor that installed it first said it should take care of itself, but then said that the system needed to be bled. They came over Thursday (4 days ago) to bleed the system. Seemed to be quiet for about 3 hours and is now as loud if not louder than before.

Part 2: While they were visiting on Thursday they determined the reason for the temperature problems in the bedrooms was due to an excessivly high Delta-T... about 100 degrees and said I need to split the bedrooms off onto another Zone. Tempoary solution was to turn the boiler temp up to 220. Our house is about 1200 sq/ft with 65 feet of Slant-Fin cooper and a base-board kicker in the kitchen. Zone valves have been used and only the internal pump is being used.

What I am trying to figure out is if the system is designed correctly. I dug into the installation manual this weekend and noticed the diagram for hot-water base board zoning with zone valves that the expansion tank should be installed where the water is coming into the boiler and NOT where the hot water is being pumped away from the boiler (where it is currently installed.)

Is this what is creating all of the problems or is there a combination of things going on here? I could really use some help.

Thanks much in advance (sorry for rambling on)

--Al

Bill Nye

how is

the toe space convector piped into the system? 65ft of baseboard "should" work on one loop, but the convector has an awful big pressure drop across the coil and if it is in series could cause a problem.

You really shouldn't be seeing more than a 20-25° delta-T. I am not that familiar with the GV so I can't answer the pump thing. Too bad about the oil though, you really do get more heat for your money with oil.

Maybe you should get a second opinion, it sounds like contractor #1 is not interested in resolving the problem. With most of the contractors here, they wouldn't rest until your problem was resolved. Good luck I hope you get it fixed

Al Smith

Thanks for the input... I'll check on the kicker specs

I'll look for the kicker specs when I get home.

It's like pullin teeth with #1. Still have baseboard that's falling apart and they won't acknowledge and for the extra loop they want another $XXXX beyond their original quote. Hate to even think about or mention how I feel right now.

Thanks for your input.

--Al

hr

Got a drawing?

As I recall the pump inside the GV is a mixing pump to protect the boiler from cold return. You may need a system pump to actually move the water through the baseboard loop. Could be why you are seeing such delta T's.

Sounds like you have plenty of BB to handle the load. A heat loss calc would confirm this.

The Weil manual should show piping examples and concepts.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Bill Nye

Look to see

if the heater is piped with two tee's off of the 3/4" loop , or if the loop goes in one side and then out of the toespace heater?

This is not always the problem but....., sometimes it is. I like to have the convector on the return near the end of the loop and use one monflo tee and one standard tee.

If available, check the W/M literature concerning pump and expansion tank location

Al Smith

Got the Installation manual

Thanks for your thoughts.

It was in the installation manual the I noted the difference in the placement of the Expansion tank. With zone valves it's at the return back into the boiler... with zone circulators it's where the water is flowing from the boiler.

Could having the expansion tank in the wrong place be creating air in the system? Seems to me that since the system is closed that it wouldn't matter... but the drawing W/M distinctly show different placemant depending on wheather it's valves or circulators.

Thanks again,
--Al

Al Smith

So are you thinking...

That possibly the kicker is pulling too many btu's from the begining of the loop?

Did check the W/M installation manual... that's where it shows the difference in the placement of the Expansion tank.... with zone valves it's at the return back into the boiler... with zone circulators it's where the water is flowing from the boiler.

Could the placement be creating a problem with air in the system?

Thanks again,
--Al

Paul Mitchell

We do lots of GV's...

So if you have 65 feet of baseboard...rough guess of 580 btu's per foot at 180 degree water...is 37,700 btuh. Raising the temp to 200 normal would be good. If house was fine prior then most likely the problem is air. Thats the gurgle sound. Extrol or expansion tank....Piping is more critical with the expansion tank. You should have a purge valve in the return. also some sort of air purge device. Did they change the reducing valve...could be defective. You should be able to purge it and it should stay good..gauge on boiler could be bad also. The company who put it in should take care of it....WE NEVER LEAVE A JOB with a problem like this and we ALways go back till it is fixed.....Key is you were fine before....no need to split the baseboard!!!
Good Luck

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Al Smith

Thanks for the insight...

Actually it's hard to say for sure that we were fine before as the system wasn't really being pushed. The temp difference between the bedrooms and living room has always existed and the gurgling initially was non-existent.

Any recommendations on how to approach the installer to get them to the right thing? Their last recommendation was quoting for another zone.

Thanks much,
--Al

David_5

Are both circulators working?

I have seen the circulator that moves the water through the system (green one) quit. The other circulator( black one) seems to try and move water through the system but at a much slower rate. This causes a high temperature drop and gurgling.

David

Al Smith

Wish I could answer your question...

When they were here on Thurs. They used some type of strobe pen light when checking the system...but didn't mention anything not working.

Wish I could answer your question.

Thanks,
--Al

Dave_22

Strobe

Their pen light was probably just a voltage stick checking for power.....

Ken_8

Basic problem

The system sounds like it is air bound. The location/relationship between the circulator and the expansion tank is critical to resolving the gurgling - which is surely air. The pump should be pumping away from the expansion tank connection point - otherwise the air will continue to get worse.

It sounds as if the internal GV circulator is the only pump? If so, the combined distance of the entire single zone, coupled with the kick heater you imply exists - coupled with the thermostatic internal boiler bypass (factory installed internally to preclude condensing inside a non-condensing boiler) may exceed the ability of the pump to get to an effective GPM rate.

If all that water turbulence/friction exists AND the pump is incorrectly positioned in relation to the expansion tank (point of zero pressure change) - you will get a 40 or more dT - and have a cold house with noise.

If you have a contract that allowed the contractor to install a heating system - and you both agreed to a price - and now the system does not work properly - you are under no obligation to have to pay them for their design shortfall.

Rhetorical question: If they couldn't design a system that worked the first time, why would you engage them to correct it now? Unless they agree to alter their shorcomings at no cost - I'd move on and get someone to evaluate the design and do a heat load and address the real problem - not throw more money at it.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

scrook_2

Repair of the

defective, errant or otherwise nonfunctional installation should be FREE OF CHARGE -- esentially they failed (for whatever reason: equipment, design or other) to do what they were contracted and paid to do, so you should try to exhaust that avenue first. Eventually you may have to resort to paying another contractor to correct it, but one hopes not (and you should not).

Josh M.

Check to see if two pumps are pushing against eachother toward the boiler. Sounds just like gagling. Have found this twice before.

Ken_8

If they didn't

tie the kicker into a bypass, the huge dT is from the restriction the kitchen kick heater creates. Those suckers are "tight" and have huge resistence to flow - which is why they require a bypass style hook up.

Let us know how you make out.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Ken_8

I don't think

he has two circulators! Just the one inside the GV

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Al Smith

Will do..

Thanks. That makes complete sense. I'll check and report back.
--Al

Confused_2

Two pumps inside!

If it's anything like the new GV5, there are two pumps inside. One is on the return line and one is a mixer to make sure the water returning to the boiler is mixed with hot water to protect the boiler. Both are controlled by the computer. The mixer is definately variable. Both are taco 007. There should also be a connection from the supply back to the return before it runs to the indirect water heater and baseboard zone per the instructions. I believe your system needs a "secondary circulator(s)" AND it is air bound.

Al Smith

I hear what you are saying... Very interesting

Very interesting. Urg. This hurts. I agree... but what can I do but add to the work load of our public servants and contribute to our already overly litigous society.

To answer your rhetorical question... Because I am the perpetual optimist... I always hope that my fellow man when pressed to do the right thing... when asked to stand behind his name and workmanship will do so even if there were tempation$ not to.


Thanks very much for your sage advice and candid input,
--Alec

Al Smith

Thanks, JT. I'll look for what you've mentioned.

Floyd_5

Look on the pressure gauge....

tell us how much pressure is in the system....you may have developed a leak somewhere. Also, i did not see that you responded to Bill's ??'s about how the kicker is piped.
You's gots a circulation problem somewhere... could be air, low pressure, restriction in the piping, or a bad circ. pump....but you ain't movin' the H20.....it's that simple...maybe you gotta get a better detective...:-)

joe_17

picture

is worth a thousand words.if you can post a picture of the piping around your boiler i am sure your problem can be diagnosed.how many circ. pumps are there!

Paul Mitchell

With a standard baseboard system

the GV only needs the circulators that it comes with. I do agree with the kick heater....The boiler should heat the house fine. Also agree that maybe one of the pumps in the GV isnt working. Most likely the pump that is not the mixer. Tricky but I bet it is something simple. Keep us posted.
Paul

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Al Smith