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munchkin vision 1 w/no t-stat
jalcoplumb_2
Member Posts: 172
I have a Munchkin w/ vision 1 kit. I have the T-T jumped. I have adjusted the reset curve to maintain 65 degrees in the house.
The system is running w/ constant circulation. The munchkin does what it does best, modulates based on the return water temperature. When it gets colder out the delta T is greater and the boiler fires at a higher rate. When it gets warmer the delta T gets closer and the boiler modulates down.
In the afternoon the burner will shut down for a while but the burner is almost on 24/7.
There is very little temperature fluctuation in the house. The temperature swing is about +/- 1 degree. The job is wrapping up and I will have to install a t-stat.
I almost dont want to install one. The only reason I need to, is that the owners like it cool while they sleep.
I wish HTP would come up with a way to adjust the reset curve based on the time of day.
Bump the curve back at 11:00pm and bump it forward again at 6:00am.
Maybe add a room sensor instead of a thermostat.
It only took me two trips to adjust the heat curve but w/ vision 4 I could call the boiler up form home and do it.
The system is running w/ constant circulation. The munchkin does what it does best, modulates based on the return water temperature. When it gets colder out the delta T is greater and the boiler fires at a higher rate. When it gets warmer the delta T gets closer and the boiler modulates down.
In the afternoon the burner will shut down for a while but the burner is almost on 24/7.
There is very little temperature fluctuation in the house. The temperature swing is about +/- 1 degree. The job is wrapping up and I will have to install a t-stat.
I almost dont want to install one. The only reason I need to, is that the owners like it cool while they sleep.
I wish HTP would come up with a way to adjust the reset curve based on the time of day.
Bump the curve back at 11:00pm and bump it forward again at 6:00am.
Maybe add a room sensor instead of a thermostat.
It only took me two trips to adjust the heat curve but w/ vision 4 I could call the boiler up form home and do it.
0
Comments
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Nice clean job...
I'm sure Jeff Cooke and Chuckie Shaw can steer u in the right direction. MD
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I'm watching
with great interest. I have a job coming up where this info would be good to have. Nice looking job. Is that the Superstore that has the sensor rather than the aquastst. Which model is that? I have a job where I put a reset control on a system with Cast Iron Rads that were way big because the old boiler was gravity. I have the top of the curve down to 130 at 10 degrees outside temps and it is still heating the house and turning off the tstat. I am waiting on a 10K sensor from TekMar so I can shift the curve automatically with the controller. Cool stuff
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The indoor temperature
feedback is important.
Suppose they had a party and a house full of guests. The wall stat would be able to watch this heat gain, presented by a large group od warm bodies
, and shut down to prevent overheating the space.
This would not be possible by just controling supply temperature based on just outdoor temperature. Same for solar gains, or extended use of cooking appliances (Thanksgiving, etc). Or does the control have an indoor sensor ability?
hot rod
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Delta-T
heat gain will lower the Delta-T thus modulating/shutting down the burner.
Constant circulation will keep heat distribution even.
The control is the stock 925 with vision 1 kit. Wish it had an indoor sensor vs t-stat. Can't have my cake and eat it too.
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The Superstor
is a SS-45 with the vision 1 kit. The kit provides an outdoor sensor and an indirect sensor. The munchkin control will give the indirect priority when it calls and ramp up the munchie to full throttle to recover quickly. After the call for DHW the munchie ramps back to the heat curve.
This system is all Cast Iron Rads 11 total. I removed all the old supply/return mains and ran pex off the manifold. This manifold has flow meters built in and takes the guess work out of balancing the system.
Good luck with your system.
Joe0 -
preset thermostats
Accutemp makes thermostats that are preset with many different set points through use of thermisters and have locking covers. They are mostly used on appartments buildings so the tenants can not raise the temp over the national standard of 68* This sesor work's through a 24 volt sw. Hot Rod has a valid point how would you measure the btu's generated when cooking or gatherings take place and the heat generated would over heat the rooms if you do not have a thermostat controling it.
The though has come up durring conversation and we in tech support are going to play around with the out door sensor by locating it in the building and adjusting the curve to see the effects. jc0 -
didn't understand that
> heat gain will lower the Delta-T thus
> modulating/shutting down the burner.
I didn't understand that. The Vision I doesn't know about the heat gain. It's not a rise in temperature outside the house, it's an unpredictable heat gain inside the house due to cooking, sun shining in, windy day in leaky house, etc. You need a thermostat to watch for these things, unless you have a Tekmar reset controller tht takes an indoor sensor (e.g. a 260).0 -
\"Maybe add a room sensor instead of a thermostat
> I have a Munchkin w/ vision 1 kit. I have the
> T-T jumped. I have adjusted the reset curve to
> maintain 65 degrees in the house.
>
> The system
> is running w/ constant circulation. The munchkin
> does what it does best, modulates based on the
> return water temperature. When it gets colder
> out the delta T is greater and the boiler fires
> at a higher rate. When it gets warmer the delta
> T gets closer and the boiler modulates down.
> In the afternoon the burner will shut down for a
> while but the burner is almost on 24/7.
> There is very little temperature fluctuation in
> the house. The temperature swing is about +/- 1
> degree. The job is wrapping up and I will have
> to install a t-stat.
>
> I almost dont want to
> install one. The only reason I need to, is that
> the owners like it cool while they sleep.
>
> I
> wish HTP would come up with a way to adjust the
> reset curve based on the time of day.
>
> Bump
> the curve back at 11:00pm and bump it forward
> again at 6:00am.
>
> Maybe add a room sensor
> instead of a thermostat.
>
> It only took me two
> trips to adjust the heat curve but w/ vision 4 I
> could call the boiler up form home and do it.
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\"Maybe add a room sensor instead of a thermostat\"
Instead of "room sensor" I think what you want is...
A VECTOR sensor...nothing difficult in a vector--it's just a force with magnitude and direction.
If temp changes more than x amount in y time take z action. If I was told properly by those in the know, the Vitodens can do with with an "auxilliary" indoor sensor.0 -
Why need a thermostat...
I sincerely believe that this question will become more and more common as the use of modulating boilers increases.
If you've done your job and have computed an accurate BALANCED heat loss the damned thing is going to stay quite linear regardless of the actual loss of the space and the actual temperatures involved.
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RADIATION
will do this!!!!!!! It's the ONLY thing that can as it has the POWER!!!! How on earth heating engineers ever dismissed something whose power increases with the fouth magnitude is beyond me AND them....
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Vision 1 does know...
Munchkin monitors the return water temperature. As the room gets hotter the delta-T will decrease. As the room gets colder the delta-T will increase. The munchkin will use the delta-T to modulate the burner.
From Munchkin manual:
When the room thermostat calls for heat, the Munchkin control board will start the circulator and start
to monitor the return temperature of the system before the heater will begin to heat the water. Once
the controller has sensed a drop in the return water temperature below the temperature set point
minus the differential set point, the heater will start to heat the water. This eliminates the Munchkin
starting every time the thermostat calls for heat. This feature keeps the system from short cycling.
Once the system has sensed the temperature difference, the Munchkin will activate the blower motor
for 5 seconds to pre-purge the system before starting the Munchkin.
The Munchkin controller will now
start to modulate the pre-mix burner based on analyzing the return temperature, supply water
temperature and the set point temperature.
By compiling this information, the controller utilizes an
algorithm to fully adjust the firing rate while maintaining the desired output temperature. The pre-mix
burner fan has a direct drive current low-voltage motor with a pulse relay counting. This system allows
precise control over the fan speed and combustion air volumes. Coupled with the Honeywell gas valve
and the Venturi system which are set to provide a one-to-one ratio of precisely measured volumes of
fuel to air, an accurate and instant burner output is achieved. This keeps the Munchkin running at the
highest efficiency.0 -
yes but
Yes, I know the Munchkin reads the return water temperature. As I understood it, the Munchkin uses the temperature reading to determine how hard it needs to heat the water to get it to the set water temperature. The text you copied is NOT from the description of Vision I but of the basic Munchkin boiler; the operative phrase from that text is "maintaining the desired output temperature".
What it's saying is only that if (say) the water temp is set to be 160 and the return water is at 70, it will fire on all cylinders, but as the return temperature gets closer to the set temperature, it will cut the burners back until it is just holding the water temperature. (This is better than going on/off/on/off.)
You are saying that it uses the return temperature to MEASURE how warm the house is, and thus hold it at (say) 70F exactly by changing T based on the observed delta-T. There is nothing in the text you quoted that says this, and I find your claim hard to believe. The delta-T does depend on the temperature of the house but I would guess it's not a sufficiently reliable indicator.
I'm not an expert, but there must be many experts here who can say whether they install Munchkins (or any furnace with a separate outdoor reset controller) and completely skip the thermostat.0 -
just that...
when there is a heat gain the delta-t is less and the burner will modulate down to compensate.
No this is not by any means going to absolutely prevent overheating by any type of sudden and unusual heat gain. It is possible to overheat by a sudden and unusual heat gain even with a thermostat.
This is why I was just wishing the munchkin was able to use an indoor sensor like Tekmar does to monitor the indoor temp and possibly adjust the reset curve accordingly.
But for the past few weeks I have been running this system with no thermostat and during the afternoon when the outside temp creeps up and the sun is beating on the house I have not noticed any great change in the inside temperature. The munchkin burner does shut down for a while. I do notice the delta-T getting closer as the afternoon approaches.
If it was not for the fact that they want it cooler at night I would feel confident that the system would run well without a thermostat.
I think some of the great minds on the wall could explain the delta-T thing better than I can.
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Delta t \"thing\"
All I can say is that the mean radiant temperature of a space greatly (and reasonably predictably) influences delta-t of a highly-conduction based heat transfer of water to conditioned air.
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What he....
said.0 -
Something I think about,
when i am doing this setup, is also the fact that the minimum modulation may also exceed the heat loss, given the interior gains. Now in theory the return temp should pick this up, but I have experienced the time it takes to modulate, the room, or zone temp can overshoot a bit, it's nice to have a room stat to stop this. Another thing to think about is with a multiple zone system, a three way diverting valve setup, so your zone pump runs till the zone calls again.
just my 2 cents worth.
Jay0 -
yes, of course, but so what?
> All I can say is that the mean radiant
> temperature of a space greatly (and reasonably
> predictably) influences delta-t of a
> highly-conduction based heat transfer of water to
> conditioned air.
No one has denied that. The question is how well you can control the temperature of the house based on reading that delta-T. If it can be done, it will require calibration of how delta-T depends on the indoor temperature. This dependence is different for each house, and is not the same as setting the parameters for the reset curve in the Munchkin. At no point in the installation instructions does it say "Tell me when it is 70F indoors, I will read the corresponding delta-T, and then try to hold this indoor temperature by holding this delta-T." So the Munchkin does NOT know the temperature inside the house.
There are many Munchkin experts here... if anyone else has installed Munchkins without any thermostatic supervision, I am sure they would have posted here.0 -
How to control temp of house without a thermostat...
...one POSSIBLE way...
In a radiant panel application the reset curve amounts to supply temp required to heat the panel to a certain degree of temperature which corresponds with an air temperature as modified by outside temperature.
By setting and adjusting the curve you ARE giving it inside temperature information--just not in a direct manner.
With the T-T connection jumped the boiler "thinks" the thermostat is NEVER satisfied--but because there is a reset curve to follow the supply temperature is strictly limited.
As delta-t changes, the burner MUST change its firing rate as well in order to keep the supply temperature desired at the current outdoor temp. Because the boiler thinks that the thermostat is never satisifed it is essentially forced to continue to produce heat as long as it can modulate low enough to prevent the supply temp from overshooting the curve. When it can no longer continue to fire without raising the temperature it stops firing and waits until the delta-t increases enough to allow heat to again be added.
But why does the delta-t change in the first place and what does this have to do with indoor temperature?
Go back to original post:
"...adjusted the reset curve to MAINTAIN [emphasis added] 65° in the house."
"...have the T-T jumped."
"There is very little temperature fluctuation in the house. The temperature swing is about +/- 1 degree."
"In the afternoon the burner will shut down for a while but the burner is almost on 24/7."
This is that "magic" state that I keep talking about--a state of maintenance where radiation "grabs" control. This happens with iron radiators, panel radiators, and even baseboard radiators--it's just easier to "see" and has greater influence with big things like a floor.
As the mean radiant temperature of the space changes, the delta-t changes INSTANTLY and since radiation increases on the order of the fourth magnitude with temperature difference it takes VERY little change in the mean radiant temperature to affect a surprisingly large change in the water. As the mean radiant temperature increases (sun, less wind, even people) the delta-t decreases and the boiler is forced to reduce fire to maintain the desired supply temperature.
I know that sounds a bit bizarre, especially when I say that it is instantly affecting the temperature of the water itself!
The following is JUST a model that you can use to visualize how this happens. While I can't prove that it actually works this way, I really can't dis-prove it either....
Consider the portion of heat that is CONDUCTING from the water through the tube and into the floor as BEING the water itself. The water is actually jumping out of the floor through its surface and into every other object in the room. Every other object in the room is jumping into the water.
As the mean radiant temperature of the space drops (clouds, wind, darkness, rain, etc.), more of the warmer water jumps into the room but, at the same time, more of the cooler room jumps into the water and the water cools. Delta-t increases and the boiler is forced to increase fire. The opposite happens when mean radiant temperature of the space increases.
Before you think I'm saying that the temperature of the water inside of the tube (not the temperature of the surface) is what matters remember that I said "only consider the portion of heat conducting from the water to the surface to "be" the water. This is GREATLY important as it helps explain yet another "mystery".
How you ask can a reset curve EVER be that accurate--or tubing layout be that accurate either? The answer is that they can't. But what is happening?
Conduction doesn't work like radiation--the objects are actually in contact to begin with. In a conduction-based radiant panel application comparing essentially identical heat transfer method the amount of conduction will vary itself to produce nearly the same surface temperature--regardless of the mean radiant temperature. So, in a less exposed space there is less "water" in the surface to begin with! (Sorry, I can't really explain this--and haven't yet developed an analogy--but again, all appearance is that this is what happens.) Small, lightly exposed rooms in spaces spaces heated by massive panels with a low temperature source of heat just don't seem to overheat like you "think" they should... There are MANY examples. I'm convinced the "answer" to this lies in the different behavior of a still massive panel heated with a high temperature source like electricity.
HTP and other modulating boiler makers have to produce a boiler that will work with all types of systems--not just massive, conduction-based, low-temperature radiant panels. Other types of heating systems wouldn't be able to produce such consistent results with T-T jumped because not as much of the "walls" are "in" the "water" and not as much of the "water" is "in" the "walls"...
I believe that modulating boiler manufacturers will start to re-think what actually constitutes a thermostat and will either provide a reset curve "tweak" adjustment like a "warmer--cooler" dial OR will develop vector-based thermostats that are never satisfied....i.e. T-T is almost always "sort of jumped".0 -
An idea for you Jeff.
Put a tiny resistive 24V "heating pad" on the outside sensor and either use a dimmer-type device (if A/C) or variable DC to "fool" the sensor into thinking that it is somewhat warmer outside. (Idea "borrowed" from Danfoss setback TRVs and X-10 setback devices.)0 -
why 'play around'?
> Hot Rod has a valid point how would you
> measure the btu's generated when cooking or
> gatherings take place and the heat generated
> would over heat the rooms if you do not have a
> thermostat controling it. The though has come up
This is a well-known issue, see e.g. the article at
http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,21624,00.html
> durring conversation and we in tech support are
> going to play around with the out door sensor by
> locating it in the building and adjusting the
> curve to see the effects. jc
It is easier to either (a) add an indoor sensor and have the Vision software use that information, as some Tekmars do; or (b) use the delta-T, as suggested above, with some kind of calibration procedure to determine what delta-T corresponds to what indoor temperature. In both cases you're using additional information, rather than just "playing around" with the outdoor temperature measurement, which doesn't carry any specific information about the inside of the house.
Multiple zones are a problem, however.0 -
glad you
had time to write all of that.
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I'm sincerely not claiming...
...that some actions in the space might overwhelm this ability to compensate but...
If the homeowners are game it might be interesting to install a thermostat by-pass switch (that jumps T-T) and call it an "auto-manual" switch...
Would be very interesting to find out just how well "auto" compensates for routine (and not so routine) activity.
For nighttime setback they could quite literally leave the t-stat set at the desired setback temp and just move the switch to "manual" at night and "auto" during the day...
One thing to remember though--unless you readjust the reset curve you might not be able to get much? any? above 65° regardless of t-stat setting as if I'm understanding any of this correctly, by jumping T-T you're riding the very top of the reset curve.
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Time...
...just the amount of time for contact cement to dry.0 -
Mike you are on ..
my page.
I want a control to reset the reset curve in the evening to bring the temp down.
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Ah, the beauty of indoor reset.
who cares what is happening out side! If in fact the control can keep the room within a degree or two of setpoint, I don"t care if it's 50° or -10° outside
Indoor reset watch gains from cooking, sunshine, warm bodies, etc. Also if doors or windows are left open it sees this and ramps up. Regardless of outdoor temperature.
Really outdoor resets strong point is anticipation. It can be ready to ramp things up as temperature plunge, as it's common for the heat demand to increase as the indoor to outdoor delta t widens
But not ALWAYS. This is why tekmar is so adament about using indoor feedback, weather it be a t-stat, or just a thermistor in several rooms to watch actual indoor temperature.
It crunches this info, along with outdoor temperature info to create the exact heating curve.
If you control logic is at this level, using outdoor without indoor feedback is like one hand clapping.
Just depends how techinical you want, or need, to go to br comfortable and energy efficient.
Try different locations for the outdoor sensor. East wall locations see solar gain better, every building is different.
hot rod
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Barring an actual adjustment already built-in to the boiler...
The way I see to do this is to "fool" the outside sensor into thinking it is a different temperature outside than actual.
Is it a copper sensing bulb or thermister?0 -
no problem w/multi zones
use a consistant design temp and ride the reset curve. why zone?
if it is to be cooler in an area you can lower the supply temp to that area or change the flow rate.
Keep an open mind there are many ways to do this.
I will post later this evening. The kids are calling.0 -
OK, but...
...the original post was about installing a Munchkin and not putting in a thermostat. Even the Munchkin Man (see post) doesn't see that as reasonable.
You are visualizing a different system of control. Maybe it will work, but today the OP shouldn't leave the Munchkin running without a thermostat.
PS What if there is more than one zone?0 -
Maybe they hadn't really planned...
...on it actually being able to work without a thermostat!
I'm just taking Joe at his word; believing that the system is operating as he describes and trying to explain why it doesn't seem to need a thermostat.
I know I have zero need for a thermostat in my radiantly heated bathrooms and that's with nothing more than an old cast iron boiler and mechanical reset.
Zoning WOULD throw this out-of-whack somewhat...but if the zoning was done through proportional flow devices for each you don't need a wall thermostat then either...
p.s. The Vitodens likely uses a much different program to control its burner is it IS intended to work in a proportional system. While it was pretty late at the lounge at Wetstock I'm quite certain that someone quite familiar told me that the Vitodens has an input for a thermostat that's not really acting in the way we think of a thermostat as it allows the machine to change its target reset value based on input from the device.0 -
\"doesn't SEEM to need a thermostat\"
> I'm just taking Joe at his word;
> believing that the system is operating as he
> describes and trying to explain why it doesn't
> seem to need a thermostat.
Has he measured the temperature trends using a data logger rather than using a homeowner? Has he kept the logger running on a windy day (assuming leaky house) or with a couple of windows "accidentally" left open, or with the oven running all day for a big family dinner? How much does the temp change, does it ever return to 70F after such events, and if so how quickly?
Even with no such events, is the reset curve so perfectly matched to the house that it holds 70F indoors whether the outside temperature is 60F or -10F?
Incomplete anecdotal evidence isn't enough...0 -
Spoken Like A True Scientist
NO OFFENSE--ALWAYS BEST TO BE SKEPTICAL.
---------------------------------------
From a previous post from "radiantwizard" 12-3-03
"...That house is approx 3,000sqft all hardwood except for kitchen and bathroom. Radiant is all above the floor again using Quick Trak. Again average water temp throughout the heating season is 90 degrees. Here's the kicker. There is no thermostat in the house. I mean none. The system comes on in the fall and off in the spring and it is the most comfortable house I have ever been in.
By the way I'm in New England and we have some brutal winters..."
-------------------------------------------
Yes, still another anecdote I know. As are mine I suppose. As are others who have written here (and other places) wondering why the need a thermostat... Common grain through all (besides the conduction-based low temperature panels)--proportionality--either a modulating boiler or modulating mixing devices...
When I finally get to my kitchen radiant floor (just TRVd rads now) I'm sincerely going to try it first without a thermostat--just like the baths. Rather "tough" space for such with 4 large N-facing windows, 5 large E-facing windows, an open staircase to upstairs, 56' of exposed wall, 2½" of wood to force the "water" through in the kitchen proper and 1½" in the eating area with a typical supply temp of only 120°. Should be VERY interesting...
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reporting impressions
> Again average water temp throughout the heating
> season is 90 degrees. Here's the kicker. There is
> no thermostat in the house. I mean none. The
> system comes on in the fall and off in the spring
Obviously, a whole season of testing is better than a few days. But People who want to believe that something works well will ignore all evidence to the contrary, sincerely failing to even notice that evidence. Scientists are actually the worst, because they are trained to form theories, but then they will cherry-pick the evidence to prove their theories.
In the text you quoted, it never says how steady the temperature was. +/- 5F? 10F? 15F? All we know is that the house was "comfortable", which is a subjective impression slanted by the author's need to claim that the system works well.0 -
This is one of the \"stranger\" parts...
>Even with no such events, is the reset curve so perfectly >matched to the house that it holds 70F indoors whether the >outside temperature is 60F or -10F?
Not a lab study--sorry--but it's the best I can do in an actual home...
Two radiantly heated baths off the same dedicated constantly circulating reverse-return "manifold". Essentially identical cubic contents and proportion of heated floor. Essentially identical length of tube in each loop and identical number/orientation of bends.
BOTH produce nearly the same average floor surface temperature. Both produce the same results--5° above the average temperature of the surrounding space regardless of outdoor temp.
What's the difference? One is fully internal--the other has an exposed wall with two windows. The delta-t of the unexposed is right at ½ that of the exposed.
Before you ask--yes, the exposed bath floor DOES exhibit greater temp variance across its surface but with both measured at "center of radiantly heated mass" temp is very similar.
No thermostat--no control other than valves for the "manifold" with their handles removed once they were set for a 20° average delta-t at moderate outdoor conditions.
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Yes Hot Rod
I love to use the Tekmar controls that have indoor feedback. I have several jobs out there running fine with no tstat, just 24 volts run right to the Tekmar input terminals instead of the tstat sending the 24 volts. The indoor feedback sensor (10K) then shifts the reset curve parallel to match the temperature programmed into the control based on indoor feedback. I have even used a 10K thermister with a dial for homeowners to control the temp setting up and down, but all they are doing is changing the indoor feedback resistance. Be careful though. Not all Tekmar controls are compatiple with the adjustable sensor. I would love it if the Vision control came out with a similar indoor feedback sensor. I think it is the next logical developement. WW
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AWSOME!!!!
Beautiful babies Joe!
"In-door" swimming pool!!!
God bless their hearts!
Mark H
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my whole point is ....
this installation, with just outdoor reset and a modulating boiler has preformed above and beyond any of my expectations. The plan is to add the thermostats. I was just making some observations and wanted to get some feedback.
If you have read the previous post you will see that I would prefer to have indoor feedback. I would prefer to have an indoor sensor vs t-stat that would send feedback to the control and adjust the reset curve appropriately. The 925 with vision does not do this. I wish it could. I will have to look into other options.
I do not have a data logger (wish I did) but there is a thermometer on the wall of the dining room. I have been working in this house for the past few weeks and I check the temp a few times a day and check the boiler readout a few times a day. I have not logged any of the results; I have not had the time (tight schedule on this job and two infants at home). I have got a lot of feedback from the contractors working in the home and the owners about how comfortable they are throughout the day.
The owners will be moving in full time within the week. I think I have talked them into letting the system go without a thermostat for a while to see how the system works.
The basement will be finished and I will be adding copper fin baseboard to heat it. I have designed the system for design temp of 170 to match the rest of the system. I will be experimenting with using constant circulation through both zones with just the reset curve driving the system. I am curious to see how the baseboard and copper fin will react together. I know that normally you need to put them on separate zones due to the fact that the fin will cool much quicker than the cast radiators, but this is not a typical installation.
How will it work? I will let you all know.
You all have great points. Mike, Chuckles and Hot Rod I would love to give you a call on my dime and shoot the ****. I hate typing and trying to interpret my thoughts onto this stupid machine. My wife and kids tend to miss me when I sit on the wall for hours. It is very addictive. Something to do with the quest for knowledge.
Thank you all for your post and great insight.
Joe Landree
J.A.L. Co. Plumbing & Heating0 -
Thank You
Mark
They keep me busy.0 -
Walt
this is the job I was talking about.0
This discussion has been closed.
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