New Burnham Gas (Revolution) Not heating

Jim Eastman

Don,

Yep, two doors! If you put the Rev in the corner, you will be stuck (upside down and burning your arm) trying to remove the cartridge on the primary pump through the top panel and the front panel. Not fun! I know! I realize that the suggested service clearance is specified, but when you have plumbers who do new construction (only)and refuse to service what they install, why would they bother to leave such "service clearance"? By the way, these "new construction plumbers" have a much lower overhead, don't do any after hours calls, and severely undercut my bids. The nice thing is, the customers know who to call for SERVICE!

It is just frustrating to service a system that was installed with zero consideration for the need for service in the future! (no isolation valves, poor placement to allow service of components that will certainly need service, etc.)

Just Venting!

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing
Boulder, CO

Mike15

New Burnham gas (revolution) not heating

I have had a new Revolution installed - 100000 BTU model. We are haveing a terrible time getting it to extract heat from the boiler into the zones. The boiler runs up to temp (220 deg) no problem, but the zone pipes just wont get hot enough to deliver heat. We are talking average house temps in the mid 50's. We've changed the circ pump (thinking it was limping along), and moved it from the return to the supply side. As far as I can tell it's just not drawing heated water from the boiler well. There is a manifold system in this burner with an interanl ciruclator which looks like its designed to draw water from the return and from the boiler to both mix and send to the zones and return to the boiler for reheat. The pump appears to be functioning, although I'm not sure if this is the problem area (the mixing that is)

The only tihng I can see that might be wrong is that when we moved the circulator pump to the supply side it was then located in front of the expansion tank with respect o flow. Could this cause THAT much trouble?

Also the boiler was moved from it's original location and the tie over was done (just temporary to get running) with 1/2" flexible tubing for about 6 feet of each zone. The rest of the system is 3/4".

I'm freezing, any help please?

-M

GW

air in the lines?

There are only a few things that will keep the heat from flowing. Where O where is the person who installed it?

Gary

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Mike15

The family plumber of course!

My brother in law is a licensed plumber, and I'
m digging around online now at his request. He's onbthe gas companies list and has installed a bunch of these things over the past few yeatrs without a call back. Now he has this problem with mine an one otehr he did last month. The old oil burner was about 40 years old, but heated the house fine, but was a dead soldier. Teh gas company had a free boiler program so I said "what the hey" sicne my install was free! Anyhow, off topic.

The point he has bled this thing down a dozen times. we can't get any air what soever out, other than the first bleed we did when the tie over was done.

Just looking for someone who may ahve happened on this problem also..

Thx

ScottMP

If your brother is stumped

Than you need to have the local rep from Burnham do a site visit. Burnham is a great company that stands behind its product and would be more than happy to help.

Have you checked to make sure that the pump inside the boiler is working correctly ?

What do you have for heating in the rooms ? Copper finned baseboard ? Cast iron basebaord ? Cast iron radiators ?

Is it one zone or multiple zones ? Zones valves ?

Has your brother piped the Revolution according to the instructions ? Have you checked the instructions for trouble shooting ?

Could be anything and it could be simple.

Scott

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GW

something

is going on... it's usually something simple too. I've been there many times. How cold is it? Is it possible something froze when the system was down?

Are you positive you're getting flow through the entire loop(s)?

Is he around? I can talk to him right now via telephone.

I'll be here for about 10 minutes. reply soon

Gary

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ed wallace

revolution not heating

lets start with the 1/2 flex tubing thats wrong should be 3/4 copper you should also be pumping away from a spirovent,are you using a pressurized expansion tank? did the plumber pipe it according to manufactureres specs?

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Mike15

I agree, I'd prefer to see 3/4 copper all the way, but I have to say one zone (of my three) is all copper. The other two each have one length of the 1/2 inch on the return side. Since all three zones (even the all 3/4 copper one) are not getting good heat I think the jury is out on whether it is specifically the reduction on pipe size causing the trouble. Anecdotally I'd say not. Not that it matters, but like I said those 1/2 lengths are only about 6 feet long. I don't fully understand the pressure and circulation issues, but I thnk it seems ok for the moment. Regardless, we ARE going to change it back to all 3/4.

The expansion tank is a pre pressureized one. The system is running at 20 lbs, sometimes a little less depneding on temp. It's your typical 30.00 home depot tank.

As for piping to mfg specs, yes, everything is exactly how Burnham lays it out EXCEPT like I said, the cirulator pump is in front of the expansion tank instead of after the tank. I read somewhere today that this can casue pre and post puimp pressure issues. Any thoughts?

Burnham support isn't available on the weekends (I tried today), so we have to slug it out until Monday

-M

Thanks for everyones advice on this.

ed wallace

burnham

ok so you have 1/2 rubber hose in the zones thats no good thats a restriction you have circulater before the pressurized expansion tank not good circulater belongs after expansion tank at the point of no pressure change do you have a spirovent? aie eliminater? or is expansion tank just piped in to a tee what size is the header pipes of the boiler ? is it 1 1/4 in then into 3/3 inch zones? can you post pics?

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Mike15

The 1/2" is a rigid copper core plastic tuing with compression fittings. I guess it doesn;t matter though, it's still 1/2". I agree, it's gotta go, even thought, like I said, my sole 3/4" copper zone has the same problem as the ones with 1/2"

The expansion tank hangs from the bottom of the scoop.

I could try and get pix later, but the setup is this:

(1-1/4 supply) -> (1-1/4 circ 1-1/4) -> (1-1/4 scoop 1-1/4) -> (3/4 zone manifold.)

This was bascially the same setup on my old boiler except the circ was on the return.

Mike15

As for the pump inside the boiler, I'm not sure how to isolate that. I'm not sure "I" am suppsed to go in there for waranty purposes. Assuming I have proper circualtion (even weith the pressure and restrcition issues), it smeels like it could be this mixing pump. ie. the boiler water get to 220, but the pipes NEVER got to close to that.

I should state that the system was working fairly well (have not bee hppy overall yet) until Wednesday. We could always satify thermostats, albeit very slowly, but then Wed mroning we lsot 20 degress. Burnham told us to move the circ pump to the supply, but never said anything about pre or post expansion tank. I wasn't unware that could be an issue until today. They said as for the tmep drop there must have been an air bubble in the manifold.

I'm not buying that last bit..

-M

ed wallace

burnham

ok is the arrow on the circulater pointing away from the boiler???

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Mad Dog

alot of plumbers ain't too good at heatin'

it sounds like somethin might be piped wrong. Mad Dog

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Jim Eastman

I've read all of the posts, so far. I think that the primary circulator is not operating correctly. You can tell if it is working correctly by checking for 110 volts on the mixing board. There are three wires on the right side of the mixing circuit board. Two provide 100 volts and the other (a yellow one, I think) is the wire that provides the power to operate the circulator at the proper level to protect the boiler from cold water coming back from the system. That is the purpose (the only one that I can see) for the circulator inside the cabinet. If you can patch the yellow wire into one of the black wires, so that the yellow wire has power 100% of the time, then you should be able to get the primary circulator running and heat out into the system.

Sorry I cannot be more specific. I don't have a Revolution wiring diagram with me, this weekend.

This should get you some heat until you can get a qualified contractor to evaluate the mixing board and/or the primary circulator.

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing
Boulder, CO

Unknown

The Revolution

utilizes a Taco 007 circulator on the internal piping to vary the flow through the boiler relative to the water temperature in the boiler. There is a variable speed pump control with a sensor strapped to the boiler outlet into the internal manifold that will operate the internal at reduced speed when boiler water temperatures are below 155°F and will speed up when temperatures are above that point.

Look at the printed circuit card (Green) with 2 LED's on left side of boiler vestibule. Are both lights on solid? If the bottom light is on solid and the left rear pipe coming out of the top of the boiler jacket is not hot, but the boiler gauge is at 210°F or above, that means that the internal pump is bound up somehow. It could be solder or debris from the system causing this. This is easily servicable but will involve isolating the system away from the boiler and draining the boiler down to that level and removing the pump motor housing from the main pump housing (4 screws). You have a choice at this point of trying to free up the impeller or replacing the motor end from another Taco 007 pump.

I might add that the "system circulator" needs to be on the system supply and not on the return with this boiler. Being on the return may cause some difficulty with the built in bypass and internal pump arrangement. As always ..... be sure to have a qualified technician work on this boiler your own safety. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Unknown

Jim

Although this is one method of attempting to get the injection circulator operating at full frequency, it will probably not work if the bottom LED is on solid. Attempting to free up the pump of possible debris or a siezed rotor is more than likely the best and more permanent avenue. Bypassing the wiring is a method that sometimes works, but if left that way, can cause possible condensation issues within the boiler if cold water is prevalent in the system. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Jim Eastman

Thanks, Glenn, for the expert advice on the Revolution. The last one I had to do this with was installed with only 6" clearance to the left side to the wall! I had to remove the top panel and stand on my head to remove the primary circulator as you indicated! All this, in the middle of the night on call! Why don't you recommend to Burnham to make a REQUIRED service clearance on the left side of 30" so that the circulator can be removed, serviced, cleaned or replaced without being a gymnast?

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing
Boulder, CO

don_13

Well

the way I see it that boiler has two sevice doors,one in
the front and one on the left side.I like that!!

The plan is to allow 36'' in front of service area,thats
code around here.

Burnham I think they fit great right in the corner of the mechanical room.

Unknown

Michael

Whether you realize it or not, you are getting technical help from Burnham on a weekend. I am an employee of Burnham. My job with the company is Manager of Training. That encompasses teaching contractors, utilities, engineers and such the technical aspects of all of our products. Having worked in our techncal Services for several years prior to the position I am in now, I have and continue to offer help to troubleshoot our products. If you look at my post lower down, I am telling you what to check for and how to fix it. I will bet everything I have on the possibility of the internal injection pump being bound up with something. I have been on jobs in the field, have seen it happen and have fixed them. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

Unknown

We do Jim

However we don't word it as "Required Service Clearance". It is worded as "Recommended Sevice Clearance" as per below. Hope this helps.

Provide clearance between boiler jacket and combustible
material in accordance with local fire ordinance.
Refer to Figure 1 for minimum listed clearance from
combustible material. Recommended service clearance
is 24 inches from left side, right side and front. Service
clearances may be reduced to minimum clearances to
combustible materials.

Glenn

hr

A Taco tap

would be my first thought. Not uncommon for them to stick, and a gentle tap will free them. Water quality is important in any boiler, particularly so with VS pumps that operate at low rpms. Seems they are more prone to sticking.

My money is on a stuck mixing circ, also

Be careful removing it they can be scalding hot and even flash to steam when removed. Let the beast cool down first!

Let us know.

hot rod

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jfox

Once you verify the Taco is working

One of the simple things to check is whether all the valves are fully open. Some circulators have built in ball valves with screwdriver slots to actuate them. The slot corresponds with the flow path through the ball. If you have zone manifolds with flow balancing valves on the returns make sure none of them are closed down too much.Old style Wirsbo flow gauges on the supply manifolds are also valves and need to be open. You might double check with Burnham on whether there are any isolation valves in the boiler that might be partly closed. Viessman Vitodens boilers have screwdriver slot type ball valves on the supply and return lines.

Good luck

John

tim smith_2

revolution problems

A quick chime in, look at the tie strap on the sensor located toward the front in the compartment with the pump. I have found that strap has broken from heat in the past and this will cause the vs control to keep the internal pump bypassing water to the heat exchanger and not allowing flow out of the boiler. Just a tidbit.

Unknown

Tim

I gave that some thought first too, but in that case the pump speed light would be blinking slow indicating cooler water due to it not being attached. Mike's LED is on solid meaning the sensor is seeing the high temperature. Thanks for the heads up though!

Glenn

Mike15

Wish me luck

I am off to try Glenn's suggestion. The boiler has been colling for and hour now and my plumber will be here shortly..

One question.. if it IS the sensor is it OK to run the pump conintously until I can get a replacement? I checked the strap and the senosr is inplace. The bottom gree doesn't "blink" like a flashing traffic lights does, but I can't verify it's been on all the time.. I think I;ve noticed the top light go off, but I'm pretty sure the bottom is usually just on. Just looking for clarification as I work on the pump..

I'll be popping in here form time to time. This after. I need to get this done before the game starts!

Again, thanks for all your help guys.. I wish I stumbled in here a few days ago.

-M

-M

Unknown

If the Top LED

is off, then there is no call for heat to the boiler. That is the Power On LED. The bottom one gives an indication of the pump speed by slow or fast blinking. A solid LED means the pump is supposed to be operating at full speed.

Glenn

Mike15

Status

Pump was frozen.. not bound up with derbis, but simply seized.. Boiler is running back up to temp and my zone pipes are hotter than I have ever felt. It's warmer outside than it's been in weeks, so it's hard to tell, but this seems like it did the trick..

BTW, I have to say although I am not happy about servicing a month old boiler, the design on this thing is incerdibly simple. I'll look on the bright side that I now know my new boiler inside and out and won't be stumbling in the dark the next time I need to service it..

Thanks all, especailly to Glenn, who was answering my emails at around midnight last night.

-Mike

Unknown

You are welcome Mike!

Glad to be of help. I'm sorry that this happened Mike and that you had to deal with this. There are things that are out of our control when it comes to parts that we do not manufacture. The important thing though is being able to diagnose the possible cause quickly and correctly so that the inconveniences stay to a minimum. That's most of what my job involves. I conduct training seminars in the field to help the technicians get a better understanding of how things work so they can get to the next job quicker without changing a whole lot of parts. Once again, thanks for your patience and understanding. I also want to thank you for letting us know how you made out. I know I feel better. Now I can watch the game tonight without wondering. Go Pats!

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Kal Row

anti-stick cycle?

does the Revolution cycle the circulator during the summer like many others do to keep this from happening again?

i looked at the Revolution for a recent job, but decided to do my own pri/sec/injection with grundfos pumps and tekmar controls, such an event would wipe me out - and yes my customer paid lot more for my setup, but i wonder...

I did like your prompt response to the customer – on this site

even if i had used the revolution I would put grundfos pumps inside, all my customers have "spare" taco's that came with the boiler, lying around

ps: for all I know the actual taco failure per thousand and the Grundfos failure per thousand , is the same or even better, and I just had bad experience, and, I don’t think Grundfos could charge more for the same thing if it weren’t better, they have that “starting torque” demo, they take to trade shows, with the guts of a wet rotor, B&G, Armstrong, and taco, and theirs, with drag weights on the rotor, and demonstrate the higher starting torque of the grundfoss

Unknown

Kal

> does the Revolution cycle the circulator during

> the summer like many others do to keep this from

> happening again?

>

> i looked at the Revolution

> for a recent job, but decided to do my own

> pri/sec/injection with grundfos pumps and tekmar

> controls, such an event would wipe me out - and

> yes my customer paid lot more for my setup, but i

> wonder...

>

> I did like your prompt response to

> the customer – on this site

>

> even if i had

> used the revolution I would put grundfos pumps

> inside, all my customers have "spare" taco's that

> came with the boiler, lying around

>

> ps: for all

> I know the actual taco failure per thousand and

> the Grundfos failure per thousand , is the same

> or even better, and I just had bad experience,

> and, I don’t think Grundfos could charge more for

> the same thing if it weren’t better, they have

> that “starting torque” demo, they take to trade

> shows, with the guts of a wet rotor, B&G,

> Armstrong, and taco, and theirs, with drag

> weights on the rotor, and demonstrate the higher

> starting torque of the grundfoss

Unknown

Kal

There is no off season exercising cycle with this control. The VS3000 variable Speed injection Control is energized with 120 volts from the Honeywell L8148E Aquastat from the C1 and C2 terminals. I knew Mike's pump failure had nothing to do with off season shutdown because it's only a month old. We chose the 007 as the internal pump for this boiler because of its dependability and acceptability to the trade. We offer all 3 brands with our boilers to allow for different choices. I have seen things like this occur with Taco, B&G and Grundfos.

I had 4 Grundfos 15-42F 3-speed pumps with the removable end cap on my own heating system. I found myself having to jump start them every fall with a screw driver to get them to run. I even had my wife trained to do this procedure. I faithfully purged each zone every year but this happened non the less. Perhaps it's something in my water....who knows! I've since replaced them all with 007 Taco and NRF-22 B&G pumps to see how they do. Four years so far and no difficulties yet. Thanks for the input Kal.

Glenn

Kal Row

guess what

the latest batch grundfos i got, (were 15-58FC) did not have the removable endcap with the screwdriver slot - either they are now using a cartridge like taco or they are over confident - so it might just be time to switch back to taco - though they make those cute tiny injection pumps, that i have trouble getting in the usa

i wish taco made those, and i wish they had the check valve on the discharge side - where it doesnt effect the NPSH (realy important if you are comming off a 190-200 primary) - and it's easy to remove

in brooklyn ny, the gas prices are up 73 percent this year - so people are starting to look at all the european hi-eff stuff - it's a marketing oportunity for you