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Hydronics Genius Please

Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
Gary, you can either use a 3 way motorized valve compatible with the Vitodens, or treat the panels as a "medium temperature" zone and use the "A" pump circuit and curve. I've done both, and using the A pump strategy saves the cost of the mixing valve, but the return temps will be slightly higher than using a 3 way. The Vitodens works at highrest efficiency, as you know, when return temps are the lowest. One mixing valve circuit and one med or high temp circuit are easily installed, 2 motorized mixing valves gets up there in costs. I'd be careful of adding "non'compatible" controls, and staying with the Viessmann system design. Pump sizing for 700 panels is within the range of a 26-64 or 26-99 Grundfos pump, depending on your calcs. Run the project thru the software...it will tell you the pump sizing.

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Comments

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Hydronics Genius Please

    Hi guys,

    I'm building this monster radiant system, several thousand square feet of Climate Panel. I know a 26-99 pump, or a 009 pump can only do so much sq ft before the gpm will suffer (obviously one pump won't do 5000 sq feet).

    Here's my master plan, and I'm looking for some feed back. Novices need not respond. Uhh, well you can if you really want to.

    I'll have a Viessmann Vitodens operating the motorized mixing valve based on an "average" heating curve. There will be a small pump moving water through this station. Then there will be a small header with 3 injection pumps for the three floors of heat. The kicker is this- I really don't think one pump will do may largest floor, which is about 1800 sq or so. I still need to do some math, but I may need to gang two pumps in series for the extra boost. This same set up may or may not be required for the next two floors up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's possible to variable control two pumps in series...

    That said, the injection pumps will feed their perspective system pumping stations with the classic mini-tube set up.

    Yes, I can already hear some of you counting the circs in your mind. But keep in mind, I do desire 3 different temperature controls, and I DO NOT desire 2 additional Dekamtic HK mixing stations. Even if I did opt for this route, I'd still be looking at multiple pumps to overcome 700 climate panels. I can't think of any other way, beyond the examples I described above.


    So, the pumps will be:
    1 at the mixer
    3 variable speed units feeding their big brothers
    ? pumps to overcome the 2000 climate panels' needs.

    Thanks for ant input, and please reserve a place for me for the next 4000> heating and cooling renovation awards.

    Gary


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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    From the \"novice\" category...sorry

    If one variable speed circulator isn't sufficient but you can't put two variable speed circulators in series wouldn't it imply that:

    There is a significant "base" pressure drop occuring at any load condition.

    If series circulators required, make the first non-variable in speed, and the second variable to add the additional flow requirements?

    Don't know if that's helpful (or applicable) but sometimes "peanut gallery" comments set the creative juices flowing in the expert minds...

  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    All \"00\" series pumps

    can function as VSI pumps. There must be one that meets flow/PD requirements of the system. 5000 sq ft doesn't say too much about the actual flow requirements. Yes, it is significant, but what are the gpm/pd requirements? What pipe size is feeding? 26-99 and 009's are not your only choices.

    Jed
  • Boilerpro_3
    Boilerpro_3 Member Posts: 1,231
    Are you just running straight outdoor reset

    with the injection pumps, or does each floor have its own feedback control? If you have only straight reset, you probably only need one injection control to give you reset plus boiler protection. You set the control for the highest heating curve and then use manual three way valves (about 20 bucks each) to mix down the water temps to the other zones. It works on the same principle as the "mini tube setup". I did this on my first radiant job about 10 years ago and it works great and it's nice and simple. With the tekmar injection controls you should get about 65gpm injection flow when using 2 B&G NRF-33 pumps in parallel.

    Boilerpro
  • Bill Nye
    Bill Nye Member Posts: 221
    Gary

    Maybe should give Ed a call in Warwick? I've always gotten good advice from him.
  • joel_14
    joel_14 Member Posts: 116
    pumps

    I don't have the charts in front of me but we do large climate panel rooms all the time. Your real head is in the panels and i don't like running lots of back and forth loops to 1 manifold. In our jobs we would just break up that big area with multiple manifolds and put a pump on each one of them. but i wouldn't be using injection pumping either that is just complicating your situation not to mention driving the owners electric bill up. If you want to use a tekmar set up instead of a Decomatic why not just another mixing valve and motor from them (tekmar) instead?
  • joel_14
    joel_14 Member Posts: 116
    ???

    I reread your post. Are you saying you will have injection pumps AND pumps at each manifold and that your concerned that the Injection pump itself isn't big enough?? If you have pumps at the manifolds and your injection pumps are only moving water through the injection loop then you don't have to worry about the head of the panels right?? Sorry my heads trying to draw a picture of what your doing but it's a fuzzy one. FYI NOT a novice but I think I need another Martini....
  • joel_14
    joel_14 Member Posts: 116
    pumps

    I don't have the charts in front of me but we do large climate panel rooms all the time. Your real head is in the panels and i don't like running lots of back and forth loops to 1 manifold. In our jobs we would just break up that big area with multiple manifolds and put a pump on each one of them. but i wouldn't be using injection pumping either that is just complicating your situation not to mention driving the owners electric bill up. If you want to use a tekmar set up instead of a Decomatic why not just another mixing valve and motor from them (tekmar) instead?
  • joel_14
    joel_14 Member Posts: 116
    pumps

    I don't have the charts in front of me but we do large climate panel rooms all the time. Your real head is in the panels and i don't like running lots of back and forth loops to 1 manifold. In our jobs we would just break up that big area with multiple manifolds and put a pump on each one of them. but i wouldn't be using injection pumping either that is just complicating your situation not to mention driving the owners electric bill up. If you want to use a tekmar set up instead of a Decomatic why not just another mixing valve and motor from them (tekmar) instead?
  • joel_14
    joel_14 Member Posts: 116
    umm

    I hate it when i repeat myself
    I hate it when I repeat myself...
  • Gregg Jackson
    Gregg Jackson Member Posts: 55
    manual slaved valves

    Gary,

    Not sure if i'm missing something......but is it possible to come off the low loss header with one motorized three way mix (highest temp) and then break down your lower temps with manual three ways? I did this a few times and it worked great. This would save some pumps and get rid of the extra dekamatics.



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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Here's a pic

    This Vitodens does 2 RFH temps on separate mixing valves and an air handler coil, as well as the DHW tank

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  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    Why gang two in series

    instead of buying a bigger pump? if an 009 won't do it look at the 0013 (or a B&G PL-36) -- they both start at ~33' at no flow but where the 009 drops steeply to ~8 GPM @ 5' the 0013 curve goes to ~33 GPM @ 5', so even at a couple GPM you're still capable of overcoming a lot of head. If you need even more Grunfos has some UPS series units that will get you another 5-10' over those.

    http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Product_PDF/73.pdf (0011)
    http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Product_PDF/73.pdf (009)
    http://fhaspapp.ittind.com/literature/productPages/Series-PL-2.gif (PL-36)
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    Gary, If I read you right......

    you don't think that one smaller injection pump will be enough on your biggest area. Check out the flow needed, and I think you will be real surprized at how much a 15-42 can do on the injection side of things. I would advise not oversizing the injection pump. I've had many small radiant injection systems that we have installed a circuit setter valve on the return side of the injection piping, just to have better control over the system, and make the injection pump work a little harder. Most we do si with tekmar controls, but that won't make any difference in the flow required to do the job.

    Steve
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    aw come on Mike

    something tells me you were not the first boy picked for the lunch time kick ball game, you're one of the sharpest here, are you not?

    Maybe I jumped the gun of pairing two circs. But I wasn't proposing to gang two with variable in the picture. I'm not sure that would be a good idea.

    My idea was to use the variable speed to inject into the 'primary' radiant station, like a mini tube injection deal.

    I'll keep the wall posted on what I dream up, thanks for the help.

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    yes

    I know there are other choices, I just forgot, that's all.

    I guess I was thinking about availability for parts/cartridges, etc. If I get a big boy, and it drops, there won't be heat for who knows how many moons.

    I need to get back to the drawing board and come up with the exact flow and head. Thanks for the help,

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Hello BP

    I was thinking that the boiler's outdoor reset control would be set to accommodate the highest temerature system (which may infact be some hydro air coils, but I'm gonna try to run these at a low temperature, it's only for humidifiers in the Unico systems).

    Each floor would have its own sensor, thus 3 injectors. No need for boiler protection, it's a Vitodens.

    So, In theory the injectors would run at full speed or less for maximum comfort.

    I'll be on a pri/sec off the low loss header, so the boiler should see plenty off "cooled off" water.

    I did not think of of the 3-way deal, that's something I'll look in to. Does Stadler or someone make an electric actuator for the basic 3-way? I use a WM32 non-electric room sensor on small jobs, but that would not work for this job.

    Those B&G's seem pretty beefy. Thanks for the help,

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Joel,

    > I don't have the charts in front of me but we do

    > large climate panel rooms all the time. Your real

    > head is in the panels and i don't like running

    > lots of back and forth loops to 1 manifold. In

    > our jobs we would just break up that big area

    > with multiple manifolds and put a pump on each

    > one of them. but i wouldn't be using injection

    > pumping either that is just complicating your

    > situation not to mention driving the owners

    > electric bill up. If you want to use a tekmar set

    > up instead of a Decomatic why not just another

    > mixing valve and motor from them (tekmar)

    > instead?





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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Joel,

    > I don't have the charts in front of me but we do

    > large climate panel rooms all the time. Your real

    > head is in the panels and i don't like running

    > lots of back and forth loops to 1 manifold. In

    > our jobs we would just break up that big area

    > with multiple manifolds and put a pump on each

    > one of them. but i wouldn't be using injection

    > pumping either that is just complicating your

    > situation not to mention driving the owners

    > electric bill up. If you want to use a tekmar set

    > up instead of a Decomatic why not just another

    > mixing valve and motor from them (tekmar)

    > instead?





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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Joel

    Do you put these pump on upper floors? I was wondering if that was good or not.

    I already have one Dekamatic for the basement slab; I now have two mixing stations. I'd prefer NOT to have 4, but that's just my humble opinion.

    Thanks,

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    OK

    now I need a drink.

    I would really like to keep all the pumps at the boiler area, which may indeed mean lots of leadere tubing, and lots of runs, lots of pumping needed. So, if I only want to have one mixer off the Viessmann, and I have 3 floors that I want to run individually and still keep contstant circ, I need a way to juice up and down these 3 different systems.

    If one variable speed pump will work per floor, I guess I'll be good to go. I need to do more homework before I build this beast. I'm tired of "rules of thumb" and "the book says this pump for this many circuits", or "this is what my uncle taght me" Thanks Joel, I'll keep you posted,

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Hi Greg

    I guess that would work, but I'm looking for a little more control. If the guy throws a party in the winter, I want the system to adjust. If the party moves to the 3rd floor, I want that system to adjust. I'm just looking to adjust, if you know what I mean!

    Thanks,

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Hi Paul

    Yes, I think I understand what you're saying, although this will be off the Viessmann 3 way motorized mixing B pump. My goal is to treat three floors independantly off of the 3 way B system.

    I'm still working on the math, I'm making this my 'winter project'

    Thanks Paul,

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    nice work

    I will also have two mixing stations, a regular 3-way and a Dekamatic. I'm really looking for 4 temperatures of radiant, plus some higher temp for AHU coils.

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    Circs

    I dig the 009, but many people I talk to say they're noisy and loud/

    I had to pull teeth to get a 26-96 pump for the Vitodens' boiler pump. I liked the curve and decided to go with that or the 0014 pump. Both were miserable to find.

    That's why I'm considering ganging two pumps, because no one stocks the weird stuff. And if one bites the dust, I don't want to tell the owner it will be 3 weeks to get a replacement.

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    yes

    That is what I was refering to, but we're taling Climate Panle here, the stuff eats 007's for breakfast. Lots of head. If it was 1/2" or larger, this would be a bit simpler.

    Thanks,

    Gary

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  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424


    Its interesting to me that what is a standard stock item in our part of the country (Alaska) seems to be a special order thing back east. Must be because its taco country there for the most part.

    26-64, 26-96, 26-99 seem to be on the supply store shelf, most times I'm looking for them.

    Steve
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Have you looked at

    The Grundfos 15-58, on speed three? It may fit you needs to a T, tee :) Not a very expensive item, has a removable check, and a 3 year warranty to boot.

    You might build your Climatepanel piping to the pump ability? Quite a price difference when you start shopping high head. I'm not sure why. Can't be 3 times as much to build a 1/6hp over a 1/12 hp, motor is it?

    Ya ought to be able to get a 26-96 or 26-99 within a day or two. Johnstone, Grainger, and a bunch of other nation wide suppliers stock them if the locals are frightened to :)

    hot rod

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Kick Ball

    No matter how hard I tried (and believe me I did) I just couldn't coordinate my tall, lanky frame...

    Oh, I was "kicked" all right...particularly since I couldn't (and can't) understand the "killer" attitude of sports and business when such is only appropriate during war or threat of serious bodily harm.

    Once I "filled out" though (thanks USMC) I was quite a good bar bouncer for a few years... Rarely had to resort to actual violence but when I did I was certain that I gave them a lesson to remember.
  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    Gary

    Another way to address the high head in small tube systems is to decrease the loop length and increase the number of loops. I have yet to use more than a 15-58 on any of the climate panel systems we've done and they work beautifully. Look at the numbers on Stadler's charts for lengths less than 200 feet. I haven't looked at any numbers for injection mixing but I have to think that a standard (007/15-58) type pump is going to be capable of giving you the gpm you need. Depends on supply temp of course.

    If injection won't give you enough btu's go back and rethink mixing valves and the basic premise of keeping your boiler temp as low as possible to increase boiler and system efficiency.

    Paul has it right regarding using system A and system B on the VItodens for two of your temps. You could then add a third with another mixing control from Viessmann.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    A B C's

    Hi Steve,

    I understand the A and B system. However, I will still want motorized mixing because I want to keep the option open for any possible high temp A activities.

    And yes, 200 feet is about as far as I'll want to run. That will keep the head down, and perhaps let me run a more normal pump(s).

    I don't think variable speed pumping into a climate panel system would be a great idea- the temps would get a little lazy at the end of the loops, would it not? I'm just making a guess at that, I don't know. I was thinking about 100% pumping the individual floors/systems, and then squirting the appropriate amount of heat into that system with the injected variable mini tube set up.

    Thanks again for all the input. I have to go lok at a more mortal heating and plumbing estimate now..

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    the little guy

    Mike, I'm with you. When I was a freshman in HS, the upper classmen palyed "pin ball" with me when I walked through the doors into the building. All the babes weren't flocking to my door either. What a humble beginning. Somehow I managed to pull off marrying into a family full of PhDs, and have two of the finest children on earth. What a come back!

    I'll never qualify for the bouncer position; I'm as skinny now as I was in HS.

    Gary

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  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,678
    software

    I was just playing around with the Stadler Radiant Wizard. I typed in misc. figures until I reached 2000 sq feet with 50,000 BTUs output. It gave me a low head pump, which certainly does jive with Grundfos' 15-42 curve. 17 circuits.

    However, in the real world I'll be spreading out manifolds all over the house, and probably running 3/4" pex to these remote locations. The software's assumed 20 foot leader lines just won't work in the real world.

    I need to fiqure in the loss for the 3/4" remote run-outs. Perhaps I jumped the gun on 'pairing up' some circs; I'll be sure to post some pics when I get the beast piped. Complete with calculated head losses and gpm deliveries, of course BTU delivery. Thanks again,

    Gary

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  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    i think ziggi's software will save you a bundle

    on this job - cause if you dont model it right, you wont build it right
    me-thinks, there is still too much guessing going on - this system is costing way to much to guess with

    http://www.hydronicpros.com
    ps: i wish i got a commission
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