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3rd burnt ignightor 13months Amana forced air
Patrick Bing AIR MASTERS Durango Co 81303
Member Posts: 23
Could this be a bad ground , what is the best way to check for grounding on a furnace . Bad propane maybe , or just a defective control on furnace , bad ignitor design ? I install lots of furnaces for years . Never had this problem. Any sugestions would be helpfull .
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Comments
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Burnt ignitor
Hey this furnace has plenty of combustion air , nothing like lint from a clothes dryer , its in a mechanical room by its self . Good gas pressure.
Need help fast the owner doesnt like feeding the wood stove .0 -
is this a 80% or 90%. Are you sure the burners are not short cycling off limit or preesure switch? We've only had excessive failures because of too many ignition cycles0 -
Burnt ignitor
This furnace is defineately an 80 % efficeint furnace0 -
ignitor
Hey Harvey thanx for the reply
You said weve only had burnouts because of short cycling , who are we , and the ignitor is the newer one its a White Rogers 768A-2 PN# 11111701
The last time the ignitor failed the home owner said that he had run out of propane , this time he said that he did not run out , this would explain possibly the last time but if he is telling the truth about this time and did not run out then there is something else going on.
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Burnt ignitor
The home owner has mentioned that the furnace would sometimes take like two tries to start. Like the inducer would come on and maybe not the ignitor . Then on second time would ignite. I myself have not witnessed this.0 -
Is this a silicon nitride
igniter or a silicon carbide? What kind of integrated control do you have?
Make sure the voltage to the igniter is less than 125 vac as this is one of the causes of igniter failure. Someone already mentioned cycling which is another problem, frequent cycling can shorten the life of the igniter. Grounding should not affect the igniter but can affect the microamp signal. Is the igniter being used as a sensor? You can check the ground by attaching one lead of the multimeter to the gas valve and the other to ground on the integrated control/module set the meter on the ohms scale you should have continuity. If not you have a poor ground. The solution is to run a dedicated wire from the module to the gas valve.
If this system keeps running out of propane then the furnace will keep trying to ignite this will also shorten igniter life. You have stated that the environment is good and clean. Things like drywall dust, fiberglass, and air borne contaminants can cause a problem.
Did anyone take an room temperature resistance test on the igniter? If so what was the resistance?
You also want to check gas pressures it should be a steady 10 to 11 inches water column. In cold weather LP gas has problems with pressure. This would also cause the igniter to keep cycling attempting to light.0 -
Burnt igniter
Hey Tim Mc Elwain Thanx for reply
Not sure if this is a Silicon Nitride or Silicon Carbide
Its the new style Actually I think It would be Carbide .
Its hard not like the older ones that would break very easy. It is aprx. 2.5" long 1/4" wide solid hard black material.White Rogers makes it .
Not sure of voltage but Im pretty sure it doesnt exceed 120 volts . Im not on the site to check but ive checked before and if it were that abnormal I would have rememered.
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P.S. Hey Tim I believe the control is the White Rogers 50A55-288-040 -
That is a Silicon Nitride
igniter, they have been pretty trouble free so I am suprised they are failing so often. What is the Model number of the Amana unit?0 -
White Rodgers 50A55-288-04
has a 4 second trial for igntion with 2 retries. The control has an adaptive algorithm that adjusts the duration of the igniter warm up, to extend igniter life. Upon initial application of power the warm up time is 17 seconds. The igniter on-time will then be decreased or increased depending on whether or not flame is acheived. The warm up time is limited to a maximum of 21 seconds. During the first 64 warm up periods following power up time may not be less than 17 seconds. If there are failures or retry it keeps changing times. I suspect that the 50A55 may be the problem there is a Universal replacement which is the 50A55-843. Hope this helps.0 -
How's the draft on the furnace? What kind of chimney does it vent into? If the unit is not drafting properly maybe the ignitor is getting hotter than normal. I would think the flame roll out would trip but maybe it's right on the edge.0 -
Burnt igniter
Hey Tim McElwain
Amana model # GUIC115FA50
MFG # P1241807F
Serial # 02071263350 -
3 burnt igniters
Hey Randy
Good point , ive taken the vent into consideration , this vent probably needs attention , this was a furnace change out , upon final inspection of vent it appeared to be an abandoned wood stove vent , we could not pull a chimney liner down this vent , there were two 45 degree offsets with long screws poking out into the vent , this was abserved from atop three story roof. The owner was told that in order to replace vent drywall would have to be removed . He refused because it would be major project at an extra cost. The vent seemed to be doublewall pipe . But looked like it might have been a wood stove vent at some time .0 -
Take a draft reading from a cold start. This should show if the draft is marginal.0 -
Voltage
Most of the recurring problems I see with ignitors have to do with excess voltage. High line current, poor nuetral connections, that type of thing. Don't nitride ignitors operate on approx. 80 volt current? Maybe the board is sending full power to the ignitor and frying it.??? I don't have any reference material from W/R to indicate what voltage it should be sending to the ignitor.
The next most common thing is plain old dirt, dust and lint accumulating on the ignitor causing a hot spot and it'll burn through.
Also check for the possibility of flue condensation dripping back onto the ignitor. One or two drops will take it out right now.0 -
Voltage
Hey Steve Ebels
Thanx , no condensate good thought.
Voltage to igniter im sure is 120 volt thats what it supposed to be isnt it.0 -
I think you have a bad circuit board. The nitride ignitors I'm familiar with take 80 volts RMS. It sound like to me that if you have 125V at the ignitor, something is wrong, or it's different that what Trane/American Standard does.
Good luck, Luke0 -
WR 50A55 should
as it cycles finally reduce voltage from 120 down to around 80 volts. This is the adaptive learning routine. The igniter is rated to work with 80 volts R.M.S. (Root Mean Square). The control board should be reducing the number of AC sine wave signals per second which reduces the effective voltage R.M.S., Once it locks in then for the next 255 cycles it should hold. If you have a constant 120 volts or 125 volts the 50A55 board is bad. The igniter ohms should be 11 to 18 ohms.
Root Mean Square for those who want to know is the value assigned to an alternating current or voltage that results in the SAME POWER DISSAPATION in a fixed resistance as DC CURRENT or VOLTAGE OF THE SAME numerical VALUE. One or more cycles are turned off by the Integrated Control to control the R.M.S. voltage supplied to the silicon nitride igniter.
You need to be using a true R.M.S. voltage meter to be accurate.0 -
Luke it is the
same basic system that Trane uses, it is also used by Lennox I believe they call it by another name but the technology is the same. Those systems do not like reverse polarity by the way.0 -
Just a thought here but your not touching the ignitor when it is being installed are you?That will cause a hot spot too.0 -
On LP
If this is now on LP and was converted were all the factory conversion recommendations followed? On some brands going to LP means more than orifices and a regulator kit.0 -
Touching the igniter is a myth
it does not do a thing to bother the igniter. The igniter temp gets up to over 2500 degrees and will burn off any oils from your hands.
The folks at Norton and also Surface Igniters find that very amusing.
The reason some instructors early on told people not to touch them was to keep them from breaking them (they are fragile), some how the MYTH grew.0 -
Hey Tim
Sorry that module was actually a White Rodgers 50A65-288-05 thought that I had the replacement Board . I guess not
Anyway I Bought a board and installed along with a new igniter . System had some loose ground wires in the disconnect switch box.Checked voltage on existing board at igniter plug . 118 volts . Installed new board 108 volts not alot of differance . Also when voltage read across c common and N Nuetral on the board when powered up is .2 volts, at inital start up 2.5 and 3.5 but .2 after start up surge , like a second. Hey do these readings sound normal or the 80 volts not at the igniter plug still a problem . If so any Ideas . Also no delays at start up as mentioned .0 -
Board
White Rodgers 50A65-288-05 oops0 -
Luke
Hey all the old Amana Norton silicon carbide igniters were 120 volts this 80 volt Silicon Nitride ignitor is new.0 -
inducer draft fan
have you checked the draft fan and pressure switch with a Mag gauge to make sure they are not right on the edge?
You posted that sometimes the furnace would take 2 or more times to fire so is the pressure switch pulling properly?
Best Wishes J.Lockard0 -
Patrick it should not make any
difference they both use the same 80 volt igniter. The system should start to adjust itself and the fact that you had 108 volts tells me it is going to start the Root Mean Square algorithm down to as close to 80 volts as it can get. Time will tell but everything sounds good so far.0 -
Jim
Hey Jim , Havent checked the draft , but with the new board that problem is gone . It starts on first try. But if that problem reocurrs that will be the first thing I do .What pressure am I looking for on the pressure switch . We are at 6000 to 6500 ft at the furnace location. I havent used a magnahelic gage since an Amana school about 10 years ago . Been iching to use it . Thanx
Hey I looked in my Amana service manual ( old manual ) and found how to test the vent pressure control . It shows an incline manomter with different trip points depending on model # and altitude around -0.50 and so on .0 -
Thanks for all the expert Help
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