Historic 2-pipe VECO system in Phila.

john_27

eli...if you need orifice sizes, I think I may have a veco valve(in parts;I keep it as a spare) which you can measure if you need it...I'm in Bryn Mawr...John...

Eli

Historic 2-pipe VECO system in Phila.

This message is for anyone interested in old systems still plugging away. About a year ago I purchased a beautiful turn-of-the-century stone 8 unit apartment house. With the help of the wall, Dan's books, an engineering degree, and a lot of time in the basement, I managed to get a struggling system back on it's feet. Heating costs have gone from $10,000 per year to about $6,000 (and that's with the crazy gas prices this season) with more improvements to come. This winter I've been continuing to improve and balance the system. I've brought some rads back to life that 5-year tenants report have never worked. I have just one recalictrant rad left. What is particularly interesting about this system is that it's a VECO vapor system. I have yet to see any pressure register on the gauge at all! You can read about VECO on page 255 of 'The Fine Art'. (Note to Dan: here's one as far south as Philadelphia). One problem with my system was that 15 out of about 60 rads were missing the VECO trap. Some had been replaced with more "modern" traps(with and without elements!), some with elbows that dumped right into the return. I was unable to locate any VECO's so I made my own out of copper elbows and copper cap. tube. (Pics attached). Once I did this, I replaced the main vents in the basement and added a couple on slow branches. One interesting tidbit... the main vents that I replaced were Hoffman 76's which, according to Hoffman are only for use on wood or coal fired burners! My guess is that they were simply replaced model-number for model-number over the years. Like Dan says, look at the system, look at what you are doing. I used Hoffman 75's and it's made a great difference. The biggest improvement came from fully insulating the basement pipes. When I got the building, the basement was over 90 degrees in the winter with the windows open! Now, it's 76 (with the windows closed). Also this helped a lot because (according to my radiator calculations) the boiler is about 10% undersized. I would be happy to discuss this type of system with anyone out there, esp. if in the Philly area. The steam bug has hit me hard, given the savings a little knowlege can bring and esp. the satisfaction of the tenants.
Problem:
There's one rad I still can't get to kick. I've added main vents on both the feed and return in the basement. I hooked a hose up to the return and flushed it into a bucket in the basement. The only unusual thing about this rad is that the feed and return run through a slab. Do you think the heat conductivity of the slab would be enough to kill the steam before it got to the rad? I'm considering breaking it out and resetting it with insulation wrap. Everything else looks cool. Is there anyway to test the rad itself? It's not too hard to disconnect it.
Thanks again to help from the wall!
Eli

[Deleted User]

i like that,

thats the kind of ingenuity that made america great..i'm assuming your capilary tube is small enough to not let any steam thru into the return? thats basically all there is to a mouat trap also..i'll have to remember that..may need to pull it out of the bag of tricks some day..below is a picture of a mouat system trap i cut in half..you can see you basically made one of these also..the arrows indicate a hole that let the air out and mouat also had one hole that drained the trap in off cycles, to prevent freezing if the system went down..pretty cool what you did..you'd fit right in with the ''deadmen'', the more i delve into steam the more i respect the deadmen for finding a way around any obstacle placed in their path..

Eli

Excellent!

Thanks for putting that photo up, that's great to see. (I love openning things up to see how they work... I started with my parents' pretty expensive radio when I was about five.) The bleed-down hole is an interesting twist. I wonder how they made it, doesn't look like the casting had an openning for going in with a drill. Maybe it was cast in? Do you have a dial caliper to check the diameter of the top (air) hole? The veco measured right around 0.090 which was mighty close to the id of the capillary tube that I found in one of my piles. So to your comment, I think you lose a little steam through the hole, but that was the cost of bleeding the air. As far as I'm concerned, that little cost far outweighs the hassle of trap elements (esp. in rental units).
Eli
(If you ever need to whoop some up, they aren't too tough to do... the first one took about 2 hrs but by the last I was at about 1/2 hour each including the pipe work to fit them on)

Steamhead

Nice work, Eli

I think you could market those water-seal units without too much trouble- now that we know about them on the Wall!

Before you tear up that slab, try loosening the union at the radiator's stream inlet. If you get steam, you know that pipe is OK. Then try blowing thru the return to see if it's blocked. If the return is open, the water seal air hole is probably plugged.

And post some more pics!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Boiler Guy

Interesting stuff

I have not had the opportunity to see a vapor system up here in Winnipeg but I am sure we must have one or two around. Interesting stuff here on the Wall. Yes post more pics.

Tim

[Deleted User]

hey Eli

i measured the diameter of the air hole for the mouat trap and its 3/32 of an inch..not sure how that compares to your Veco trap, i dont have a decimal equivalant chart around the house.

Eli

How about that! (more pics +more coming)

Gerry - 3/32 is 0.094, as close to the VECO as they could manufacture 80 years ago!

Steamhead - Thanks for the suggestions. I know the return is open, I openned both ends and flushed it with a garden hose. I will break the inlet union and see if it steams. Also, to insure venting, I added a one-pipe style vent on the rad (as a diagnostic, really). Is there any type of radiator failure that is possible?

As for marketing the water seals... I actually thought of seeing if anyone else wanted some and contracting a short run of castings! Then I came up with the simple fabs in the photos and went that way. When I have a little more time I'll write a full description of how I built them (not to insult you guys with obvious stuff, but it might save time).

Here are two more photos. The first is another one of the fabbed traps, the other is a photo of the original VECO traps. They are little things of beauty and all but one or two of the rad returns are 1/2 pipe. It's really a charming system. Lucky for me the last boiler install (maybe 5 or 8 years ago) was done well (according to the parameters described in 'The Art'. (except for being about 10% undersized) Mostly, they didn't realize it was a vapor system so I replaced one of the pressuretrols with a vapor stat (the system runs between 4 and 10 ounces/ in.^2!!!!!! And as I mentioned, I've never seen the needle move. (Yes, it's a new gauge.)

I can take some shots of the system and post them. To my limited experience, it's not much different than a not-vapor system. Just simpler. If I had regular 2-pipe system, I would look into what it would take to convert to vapor!

Eli

DanHolohan

What a wonderful story!

Thanks for all the hard work, and for sharing the success story.

John Ruhnke1

Orifice in feed valve.......................

Why not pipe the return with an ordinary ell and install a orifice into the feed valve? I think this would be a little easier. I hace a client with a Veco system to. It had thermastatic radiator traps on the returns of a few radiators that got moved around. I also have several clients that have radiator valves on the feed with orifices installed in them. The thermstatic traps fail a lot and need maintanence. The orifices seem to last forever. I think you are much better off with a Veco or orifice system. I read about a guy in NYC who has drilling charts for the orifices. He still installs them and often removes thermostatic traps to install orifices. If I came across a client that was interested in keeping a old two pipe steam system with thermostatic traps but was willing to spend money to upgrade system, I may hunt this NYC guy down and change it to a oriface system.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

[Deleted User]

steamhead has that chart,

perhaps he can post it again for us.

Eli

Orifice valves - burning my brain

I'm thinking hard about what you wrote. I like the idea and I know orifice valves were popular (relatively speaking). I'm thinking that if you put the orifice in the valve you would 1) throttle the steam coming in and 2) still want a trap to keep the steam in the rad until it condenses. If I remember from the 'Lost Art', the idea with orifice valves is that you only admit enough steam that it WILL condense before hitting the return line. So sizing becomes critical. More of a finesse system. With the Veco/Broomell/Mouat you let the boiler fill the rad with steam and it self-regulates the steam because it's packed until some condenses (ignoring for the moment the small loss of steam through the bleed orifice on the exit). Different approaches. I wonder if my dead rad has an orificed valve... I'll have to check for that.
e

Steamhead

Dead VECO radiator

If you have steam coming to the radiator and a clear return line with no back-pressure in it (which would be caused by a blocked or too-small air vent on the dry return) then the trouble must be in the rad itself. A large enough accumulation of dirt or sludge could block the return connection, which would keep the steam from entering the rad.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John Ruhnke1

NO trap.................

None of the oriface systems that I have scene used a TRAP ON THE RETURN.

The size of the hole in the oriface is very important.

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John Ruhnke1

Oriface Chart?

> If you have steam coming to the radiator and a

> clear return line with no back-pressure in it

> (which would be caused by a blocked or too-small

> air vent on the dry return) then the trouble must

> be in the rad itself. A large enough accumulation

> of dirt or sludge could block the return

> connection, which would keep the steam from

> entering the rad.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 157&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Contractor"_/A_





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John Ruhnke1

Oriface Chart?

Hey Steamhead,

Where would I find one of those oriface charts he said you might have?

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Frank Weigert

Here is the chart

Eli,
Steamhead gave it to me in an earlier thread. I used it to retrofit the replacement valves in my ADSCO vapor system (In Mt Airy, Philadelphia :-)). They made a world of a difference. Here is the link:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=66690&_#Message66690

John Ruhnke1

Thanks...............

Frank,

I'm sure that will come in handy sometime.

Thanks,

JR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Eli

system photos

If it interests you, here are some photos of the system. It's a fairly new (5 or 10 years?) Weil Mclain, 440000 btu output (1375 sq ft). I am pretty pleased with my insulating job, first time playing with that. It was probably the single biggest improvement to system effectiveness and balance. I encourage everyone to insulate pipes (if it's yours) and sell the benefits (if it's a job). I've been very very pleased with SPI for the supplies (they're national with 70 outlets). This system covering 8 apartments cost about $700 in insulating supplies. I used larger diameters to cuff the flange connections and union. I marked all unions/flanges with red electrical tape to minimize future searching. You could probably get 80% of the benefit for 50% of the cost if you don't bother with the fittings (just do the pipe runs). That's what I did in my own home. I like a little heat in my basement shop anyway.
This system had two pressuretrols. I replaced one with a vaporstat. The second pressuretrol is safety/redundant.
I totalled the rads and came up with 1469 sq. ft. With a 1.33 pickup that comes to 1954. At 1375, the boiler is 30% undersized. It's doing the job, however, and I figure I've done a meticulous job with the insulation and the building had high-quality triple track storms.
Eli

Eli

Oh yeah

... I did the insulating a little at a time, but I guess I have 3 or 4 days in it.
e

Mad Dog

Are you sure you are not a descendant of

the great inventor Eli Whitney? You are a pisser!! I wanna hang with you, dude. One suggestion: Replace those Hoffmans with Gorton #2s - in fact a battery of them, will cut those bills lower. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

flange

hey nice job insulating.....why not finish it off like a pro. they sell a paste that you brush on at the joints where the fiberglass is exposed. this will help to keep the insulation from getting soaked during those long humid summer months. ask your distributor, he will know what it is.