Omission from latest book, Dan

AJW

I just read Dan's latest book, "We Got Steam Heat". In fact, it's the second of his I've read, and I also own his "Pocketful..." book.

Anyway, he talks frequently about "the knuckleheads" and discusses in plain English all about the parts and workings of a steam system. One of the ideas behind this book seems to be how to help the homeowner be more conversant about his old-style heating system and how to fix minor problems by him/herself. This is good all-around, especially for contractors who get more knowledgable clients.

But the section(s) about single-pipe vents is so thin it's incredible! Why didn't he tell us how to, at least roughly, size the vents on our radiators? I can do sq. foot calcs. I can measure pipe runs and multiply by PI, etc. Tell me how to determine what size vent to put where.

Why did I mention knuckleheads? Because the guy I bought my house from was one. He had the presence of mind, during his 40yrs living in the home, to change the vents at least once. But all the vents are SIZE C and D. Every one from the closest to the boiler to the furthest! Doesn't seem right to me. But I shouldn't need a contractor to tell me what size vent to put in which room, should I?

And then there's the whole bit about "get the air out of the system as fast as possible so the steam gets in the radiators." I talked to a contractor that said I needed to "slow down my steam" -- it was trying to travel too fast and condensing in the pipes, and then being carried along by the flow of the steam. (I have yet to hear ANY water hammer, thank God, but I have occassionally heard the vent "breathe in and out" as he mentioned in his previous book.)

Anyway, it was good, but left me wanting more. Does anyone have any info as to how I should properly size my radiator vents? Like I said, I'll take the time to do the calcs.; I just need to know what they are.

Thanks everyone!

DanHolohan

Thanks for the feedback.

It's always a challenge when writing a book to figure out what to include and what to leave out. Every book I've written I wrote five times. It's a process and it ebbs and flows as it goes along. In the end, I make a decision as to what I should say in this book to this audience. There will be other books.

Meanwhile, if you'd like to get the full-blown story on sizing, not just the vents, but the pipes and radiators, you might want to invest in The Dead Men Steam School video. I spend about an hour in that program going through the vent sizing, with much credit to Steamhead. The numbers are in the workbook that comes with the program.

Again, thanks for taking the time to give me your impressions.

AJW

Actually, my comment was a bit tounge-in-cheek

> It's always a challenge when writing a book to

> figure out what to include and what to leave out.

> Every book I've written I wrote five times. It's

> a process and it ebbs and flows as it goes along.

> In the end, I make a decision as to what I should

> say in this book to this audience. There will be

> other books.

>

> Meanwhile, if you'd like to get

> the full-blown story on sizing, not just the

> vents, but the pipes and radiators, you might

> want to invest in _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.

> cfm?category=4-25"_The Dead Men Steam School

> video_/A_. I spend about an hour in that program

> going through the vent sizing, with much credit

> to Steamhead. The numbers are in the workbook

> that comes with the program.

>

> Again, thanks

> for taking the time to give me your impressions.



The way a non-engineer can read your books (like I said, I've read two of them cover-to-cover and have the Pocketful... as a reference), and actually ENJOY the read is astounding.

I hope you take this the right way, but I find it analogous to Sebastian Junger's "The Perfect Storm" (the book, not the movie). Did I ever, in my life, think I would be able to pick up a book primarily focused upon weather patterns across a one-week period and be rivited??? Not on your life. Apparently a lot of people found it outstanding -- they DID make a movie.

AJW

Actually, my comment was a bit tounge-in-cheek

The way a non-engineer can read your books (like I said, I've read two of them cover-to-cover and have the Pocketful... as a reference), and actually ENJOY the read is astounding.

I hope you take this the right way, but I find it analogous to Sebastian Junger's "The Perfect Storm" (the book, not the movie). Did I ever, in my life, think I would be able to pick up a book primarily focused upon weather patterns across a one-week period and be rivited??? Not on your life. Apparently a lot of people found it outstanding -- they DID make a movie.

So you're Steam Heating's Sebastian Junger. You have a knack for conveying the important parts in an entertaining manner. If I had the time off work, I would drive out to Long Island to your Dec. 18 conference because I think I would enjoy it and learn more, though I'm not in the HVAC business.

Thank you for an outstanding effort!
-Aaron

DanHolohan

Shucks.

Thanks!

Unknown

Dan and air vent sizing

I did not read Dans last book. I know Dan for many years, call him a friend and respect him and all his writtings.

If Dan left out anything about air vent sizing he probably did because it is an exact science and subject to many thumb rules. Additionally, everyone that installs vent valves size them according to experiance, gut feelings, what someone told them to do, trial and error or install anthing thats cheap.

Vent valve sizing can get to be a pretty hot subject because, most people that go into buildings always think more is better and they get the results that the wanted with that outlook.

Unfortunatelly most buildings are so poorly vented that any one that can read the publications from the vent valve manufacturers can make profound improvements by following those instructions.

Does that make it right? I don't think so, but it works so I do not get into the science of it. I have my own short cuts for sizing vent valves and I have been doing it for more than 30 years. I am not doing it scientifically either, I am doing it economically for the customer and my self.

What I do that is most important, is, return to the job if some radiators do not heat properly and determene if it is the fault of the system installation or I need to install a smaller or larger vent valve.

So do not say that Dan ommited anything, he did not address it because it would take about 15 pages to explain the right way of doing it and he knows no one will do the excersize..

I did it once just for the fun of it. The building had 40 radiators of varying sizes and 180 feet of 3" steam main. It took me 4 hours to size the radiator vents and main vent.

I used 38 Hoffman # 40s, two Gorton # 5s and Gorton # 1 main vent on the steam main.

The boiler took 15 minutes to reach set pressure and the vents were able to release all the system air out of the piping in 8 minutes.

The farthest radiators in the building began to get warm at about 7 minutes and reached full hot in 12 minutes and were really cooking at the 15 minute time interval.

Oh I also sized the system by my guts. That resulted in using 40 Hoffman # 40s and one Gorton # 1 vent valve. What did I save the customer in cost of material? About $12.00 the difference in the cost of the 2 Gorton #5 and Hoffman 40s.

Where did I learn about sizing the vent valves?

I got that data from Hoffman. The director of engineering Mr. Jehl wrote an article in 1946 about venting and vent valve sizing. It was tough reading but after I got through it I had a different take on vent valve sizing.

When you understand what is involved in sizing an air vent you and most others including myself will not go through the excersize of sizing the vent valve. It is to time consuming and has tremendous amounts of suppositions in it because of all the variable involved.

Brieflly, before you start the sizing you need to know the weight of all the pipe and iron on the job. This is needed to determine how many BTUs are needed to bring all metal up from 70 degrees ambient temp to 215 degrees internal temp.

Typically the BTUs needed are about 1/2 the BTUs needed to heat the house. That is slightly greater than the piping pick up factor. Those btus should be added to btus needed to heat the standing load rather than the estimated pick up factor of 1.33.

The next step is to determine all the internal space of the piping system including the radiators. What happens when the building is equipped with steam convectors (how many tubes are in each convector,) Pipe fin convectors or copper convectors. All of the different heating elements have different internal cubic inch displacements.

The next step is to divide all the cubic inch displacent of the pipe and heating elements by the amount of heating elements on the site.

When that is done you can select an air vent for the radiators.

Heres another variable all the heating elements in the building are different sizes so one type vent valve cannot be used on all the rads.

Once we have sized the vent for all the radiators by Cubic inch discharge or cubic foot discharge per minute we can go onto the sizing of a main vent.

Let us assume for this non mathimatical discussion that we had 20 radiators properlly vented and these discharge of air is about 1/2 Cubic foot of air per minute on each radiator and the system vents in all the air in 10 minutes that means we vented 10 cubic feet of air in 10 minutes.

We may want to vent the air from the system a bit faster so we would pick a main vent valve that can release 1 cubic foot of air per minute. That would cut off about five minutes from the venting time.

The next thing we need to establish is how fast can the boiler produce steam for the system.

If the boiler is sized correctlly it will produce steam at set presuure between 8 and 12 minutes.

Since all the air is vented out of the system in about 5 minutes we vented the air much faster than the boiler produces steam.

Another thing to remember is the main vent will vent air out of the system up until steam reaches the vent. The main vent usually will vent once in a heating cycle.

So the best way to size a vent valve and make money is to use something like a Hoffman # 40 vent, it vents about 350 cubic inches of air per minute at 1 PSIG. As the pressure goes up it will vent more air. That vent valve will work O.K. on rads or heating elements up to 50 EDR.

The main vent can be a vent that vents air from 1 cubic foot a minute to 16 cubic feet per minute based on the size of the piping system.

What we need to remember is we need to vent the air faster than the boiler can produce steam.

The next variables are, are the run outs to all the heating elements sized correctlly?

Where is the T stat and is the room over radiated?

And, so on, and, so on.

Jake

AJW

Thanks for your time.

Again, I have a new appreciation for the work it takes.

I'll look at the mfr's websites and see if they have anything I can use. I can get Hoffman vents right down the street, so I see what they have first.

DAN: I see a great topic for a new book!!! (Sign me up for the first release!)

Dale

Great explanation Jake

I always enjoy your posts. I hope you write some thoughts of your own before leaving the trade, I'll bet you could find someone you know to do a pretty good edit.

Unknown

Random thoughts for a book

Hi Dale;

Thanks for your words.

I am trying to finish a book on steam heating. I am at chapter 5 which deals with venting air, vent valves, steam traps, condensate pumps and vacuum pumps.

I have been working on this project for 3 years. the editing is a real pain in the hind quarters.

Each chapter seems to take on a life of its own. So much data to put in and then to take out. It is very hard to to keep to the basics. I am do not want to write an engeering manual as there are so many better written references about steam heating than I could ever muster up.

What I am trying to do is use 40 years of experiance and reference many of the older systems I have worked on and made work.

I am trying to explain why so many hibrid steam systems came about.

I am trying to get into the head of the people that altered good working systems (the alterations worked well.)

What I found in many systems is, the problems began when some one made repairs or additions to a working system and how to alter only the errors without having to abandon a steam system that could be made to work correctly.

The book will have a few of my prize projects, ones that were home runs. A home run means the customer followed all my recommendations and the system turned out fine.

Some of these puppies cost the customer as much as $300,000.00 but that was ith a complete boiler room change out.

What I liked best about the home run excluding installing a new boiler is that most of the work paid back in 2 to five years.

Most of my work involved trouble shooting and repair work up to $10,000. Thos smaller jobs had a pay back of one heating season.

When I finish the monster I am hoping that Dan will edit and publish for me, because if the book cuts the mustard Dan will get it out to the trade where it really needs to be.

Jake

Steamhead

Jake

Let me know when it's ready. I'll buy it!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

btc

venting

I also would purchase a book or manual with venting as the main focus.

Ken Ditchfield

Venting

Anyone who wants to learn this stuff should really go to Dan's seminar or at least buy the video. I'm a homeowner, not in the trade, but I was able to make significant improvements in my system. Now it runs like some Dead Man intended it to 60 years ago. Figuring out how to fire to the connected load helped too.