trisodium phosphate vs MEX

Tim Gardner

In "The Lost Art" p. 278 Dan writes that "we can't use trisodium phosphate (or TSP, as it's often called) in my neighborhood because it harms the ground water", and he suggests using MEX instead.

If this is true, why would it depend on location? I haven't been to Dan's neighborhood, but I imagine that if TSP is no good for his neighborhood, it is probably no good for mine either. I certainly don't want to mess up anybody's water.

But if it is so bad, why do the boiler manufacturers recommend it in their literature?

Thanks,
Tim

Mike T., Swampeast MO

TSP

It's the "P" in Tri-Sodium Phosphate that is the concern.

Like many slightly hazardous substances regulation of phosphates varies greatly from state to state and possibly within states as well.

It is allowed here in southeast Missouri but to avoid "dual stocking" concerns it is not carried by the large retailers. I buy it at good paint stores. The "big box" stores frequently carry a product labeled "TSP" in BIG letters and the word "free" in little letters underneath, so pay attention to the packaging.

As a heavy-duty cleaner/degreaser/deglosser it performs extremely well.

I believe that typical sewage treatment greatly reduces or eliminates any hazard and TSP is a common ingredient in commercial kitchen cleaning products--even in California.

If allowed in your area, it seems reasonable to use some prudence. DON'T dump into untreated storm drains, and use the lowest possible concentration suitable to the job for outdoor paint preparation and the like.

Unknown

Dan's right

It isn't good for anybody's water. It is no longer easy to buy. As manuals come up for reprinting, this should catch up with the times.

Look for a product that is OK with your boiler manufacturer, and is OK to dispose of properly in your city or town.

Is it steam or water?


Noel

Tim Gardner

steam

Unknown

Steam...

Normally, I have flushed out the low returns with water, and then run the system a while.

Then I skim per the instructions till the surface is clean.

Then I dump what's left, hot, and start with clean water.

I've never had to use chemicals, myself, but I know of a system that had "stuff" put into the water. It had to be flushed, skimmed, and dumped. Then a chemical called "Dry-Steam" was used per the instructions, and the vents were changed, and it worked out fine.

Not all boilers can use chemicals. Check with the manufacturer.

Noel

George_10

A better way of stating the boiler cleaning and treatment ?

would be that they can be cleaned and treated, but you definitely need to be aware of the manufacturers recommended cleaning/treatment. Not all boilers will tolerate all chemicals, but there are treatments that are correct for a specific boiler. Hopefully the manufacturer has outlined what should be used.
Their instructions should be followed. However, if they do not outline what should be used, be very careful what you use. For example, an aluminum boiler would not tolerate a caustic chemical additive as it would eat up the aluminum.
We are always willing to help if you have specific questions. But we would definitely ask a lot of questions before making any recommendations. This area has become more complex as these new high tech boilers come into use.
The good old days of just cast iron boilers has been changed and new procedures need to be implemented.

heretic

Fertilizer

The stuff does not break down into toxic chemicals, or anything of that sort...

TSP is an excellent fertilizer. Fertilizers contain phosphates, and are also bad for lakes and streams. Causes plant grawth and algae blooms.

Has to do with how you dispose of it. If you dump it into a storm sewer that flows into a stream, you are causing problems. If you dillute it out, and spread it on your lawn or garden, you have committed an act of nutrition. Throw in the iron from cleaning your pipes, and your plants will thank you.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Rather suspected

that kinship between TSP and fertilizer.

Phosphates are mined by the thousands (if not millions) of tons from naturally occuring sources--mainly Florida in the US.

Slaughterhouses likely still produce phosphates as well. "Everything but the squeel", you know!

hr

P is for phosphate

and yes most off the shelf TSP is now phosphate free. Not sure how cleans without the "P"

I think with any boiler the goal would be to remove the cutting oils, solder flux, and any other misc petroleum based goo in the system.

For years boiler manufactures suggested TSP as the cleaner of choice. With a PH of 11 it left the hot water or steam boilers in an ideal ph range after cleaning.

My brother in law is a painter and claims the phosphate free TSP doesn't clean tobacco stains off walls like the old stuff. I imagine the same inside pipes and boilers!

There are numerous boiler cleaning products on the market. Most are soap based. For hard water of calcium build up a acidic (low ph) cleaner would be needed, not a soap based. As critical is to coat and protect those cleaned, and vunerable boiler, pump, valve, etc components.

I, too, would like to see the boiler manufactures address cleaning, and suggested products, in their start up section. With small passageway aluminum and stainless boilers out there, cleaning, or lack of, will have a much greater impact than it did in the old cast iron kettles!

hot rod

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I believe the "TSP-free" stuff is MEX (don't know the actual name behind that acronym). As a substitute for TSP it's reasonable but most certainly not as good. MEX is OUTSTANDING however for removing soot on brick/stone around fireplaces. Painters in particular will say that PEX is greatly superior for good paint prep.

Tobacco stains are a pain--being a partner in a bar I certainly know. Haven't used either TSP or MEX however as good-old Pine-Sol seems to do a reasonable job--particularly in the "odor" category. For a few years the walls were painted to match the color of the once-white insides of track lighting for the liquor. It actually looked quite good and you never noticed the tobacco stains until they came off on a rag.

Art Pittaway

So, Mike,

you clean inside your boilers with Pine-Sol so when you work in them it smells good. What a concept!!!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Never cleaned the inside of a steam (or other) boiler before...

Unknown

never?.....

I'd be interested to know if the pH in the boiler water is the same as the fresh water supply that was used to fill this system.

I don't know the answer, but I'm interested.

Noel

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not inside the HX. Have only worked on gravity conversions with cast iron boilers ranging in age from original to 1970s. Wouldn't know how or even if possible to "clean" inside the HX of such. I kind of figured that any such attempt would just result in additional sediment accumulation at the bottom--at least unless you turned the boiler upside-down Please enlighten me!

Unknown

I'm not as worried with iron pipe.

Old timers used to float oil in the boiler during lay-up periods.

It's the flux that eats the copper pipe and leaves pinholes.

I'd be curious what your water conditions are there. How long do cast iron boilers last, there?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Hard, alkaline and highly chlorinated.

Many of the hydronic systems I've seen are still on their ORIGINAL boiler--VERY often the "snowman" that was convered from solid fuel. Replacement boilers (natural gas) are usually high water content and very old as well.

My 1970s Weil-McLain is the newest boiler out of 30 or so hydronic systems using iron radiation (standing or convectors) I've seen in town.

Unknown

Can't argue with success

That's everything we could hope for.

Noel

Mike T., Swampeast MO

One other thing... The aquastats on the high water content boilers are usually set at 140° or below.

Before I added the TRVs and constant circulation to my system I ONLY saw a return temp above 120° ONCE and that was with the ENTIRE home in bare studs, no storms and no insulation! (Of course it was only about 50° inside in this state!) Had an $800 gas bill one month under those conditions and that was when gas was about half the current cost. Nearby home (forced air) a bit smaller but solid masonry and occupied had a nearly $1,000 gas bill that same month!