Low York burn through

Unknown

These boilers have been running in these houses going on 55 years , so sooner or later , somethings gotta give . Most of the time its the bottom of the boiler .

Unknown

We always try to sell

a wet base boiler to insure the burn through will not happen again . The Peerless WBV fits in nice . I try to keep the piping high enough to get the jacket top off for service . I usually install a male by compression adapter for the relief pipe , but I ran out of them that day , oops . The 3rd pic is the water main - right against the bottom of the sink cabinet . I love using Channellocks to shut off a valve . One more pic - the original cover with the Low York logo .

Steamhead

Did those Yorks

have any refractory on the firebox floor to keep the steel from burning thru?

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Unknown

Yep

They come with a solid piece of chamber brick on the bottom and tall bricks that line the chamber itself . The problem with trying to find if the boiler burned through is that there is no easy way to remove the burner to see in there . When I take apart the boiler , I usually pull the burner last because there is too much piping in the way .

Dennis - Reliable Services

Is this a Levitown type home?

The boilers in the Levitown of the Philadelphia suburbs had the boiler under the kitchen counter, venting into a single wall asbestos covered flue pipe.
The boilers had stainless steel combustion chambers.

I'm not as hungry anymore so don't service Levitown type homes. I only replace these when I see em.

Unknown

Would you happen to have a pic

of one of those boilers ? Is it a countertop boiler ? Not sure of the brand name . Heres a pic of a countertop we replaced in Syosset , New York .

Our service department prides itself in servicing and troubleshooting these old systems . But when it comes to diagnosing a burnt through chamber on the bottom , there is no way to know unless you strip the whole unit down . I should make some copies of these pics so the guys can show homeowners what the bottom might look like right now .

Mark Hunt

That looks familiar

Took this one out in October.

Mark H

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Edward A. Carey

Peerless install

Hey Ron,

Not trying to be pickey but in the front view of that new Peerless, it appears that the copper pipes are in the way of the hinged front door. Is it just the pic or is it really blocked? If it is, the burner whould have to be removed each year, to clean the chamber.

Just an observation

Ed Carey

scrook_2

you are an artist!

I love your installation pictures almost as much as the dropped header steamers (there's NOTHING quite like large C.I. fittings and black iron), keep'm coming!

Tom M.

I know you're a pro

at working in tight spaces but you must have banged your head on that pencil sharpener. Nice work as always.

Tom M.

Unknown

Yes you are right Edward

I usually 45 the pipe to the right , I am not sure why I went straight up on this particular job .

It would probably add 10 - 15 minutes to the job to pull the burner , swing the door and pull it off the hinges , then reassemble . For years the WBV did not come with the swing door , so there are plenty out there that have to be done this way .

Truth be told though , this boiler-burner combo does not need to be cleaned each year , more like every 5 or 6 years or more . And they can also do what I had to do once at my own home - pull the sight door and stick the vac hose through there . Works pretty good . Hey , at least I left them some room to get to the top . Thanks Ed .

Unknown

Give me a

big ol' steamer in a nice , wide basement any day . I know my recent ancestors walked scraping their nuckles , but I want to stand erect sometimes , like I'm almost human . Thank you scrook .

John@Reliable_5

Ron, It's a York too!

They came round and sq. about 30" high. John@Reliable

Unknown

This is a

" Duck you head all day " job . All you do is flip a bucket over , sit on it and pipe . Actually I didnt see the sharpener till my partner put the case back on at the end . I remember one time I stood up and my head went right into the corner of a cabinet . I left some hair and gray matter on that install . Would it look odd if I wore a hockey helmet while I work ? Thanks Tom .

Unknown

Thank you John

Looking at that mess , it would have been impossible to find a brand tag on it .

Unknown

Thats it

same burn , was it in a Levitt style house ?

Rick Rolston

Low Yorks

In the 60'S I've cleaned at least 1,000 of these 1950-1951 "Low York" Boilers. This picture tells me this is a L:evittown NY with its 1/12 hp B&G (not Taco) circulator piped with by-pass around the boiler with a 3/4" "restrictor nipple" at the bottom of the boiler. This was engineered to limit the temperature to the radiant heating system uder the 4" slab floor.

This is a unique boiler in that it had a "wet-leg" behind the chamber.

Theonly way this boiler could have a burn through is that the wet leg is clogged with 55 years of mud, rust and other mineral crap. Bad chamber, no heat transfer + burn-out.

Mark Hunt

Levitt style


here in upstate NY.

A developement called Cold Brook.

Most of the other guys in this area cut doors into the area under the stairs where the boiler sits. What they don't know is that the plaster has asbestos in it.

We took this puppy out in one piece through the small access door in the kitchen.

Homeowner now has a Munchkin 80m quietly running with a Peerless 30 gal indirect under it.

We were too tired to take pics!

Mark H

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John Levey

That's a tabletop York!

Rick Rolston

This looks like a 1950-51 York Boiler built for LEVITTOWN, NY

I see a photo of the BOTTOM OF the boiler with a burn-thru. Si??

The bottom of the boiler was "dry", it shows the burnt out chamber and 1/4" steel bottom plate. But the "mud" or "wet" leg is intact. I do not see a tycipal York C.I. end cone, but I'm not suprised, as the burner shown in the profile photo was clearly not a York Integral oil burner.

So what is the question??

Unknown

Can you point out

where the wet leg is in the picture ? Your statement makes perfect sense - most of these boilers had the radiant fail at one time or another . All the fresh water coming in could have fouled the mud leg pretty quick . That could be the reason we see these burned clear through quite alot .

See you at the Brentwood campus Rick , and I'll bring my set of aluminum wrenches for you to use - 18 " , 24 , 36 , and a brand new 48 " . If you're really feeling your oats , I have what looks like an all brass 48 " wrench , heavy is not the right term for this piece of mungo .

Mark Wolff

Boiler Install

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I noticed some things to think about, some code requirements might not apply in your area, etc. These are things I noticed just looking at the pictures you posted, hopefully you will find them helpful; I do not mean to be disrespectful to you or belittle your work, I know you worked hard on this, and I'm sure like all of us that you were on a time constraint.

You need to orient the expansion tank vertically with the threaded tap up per manufacturers requirements (prevents dry rot of diaghram).

Also, there are no unions on tankless water heater coil(they should be dielectric because you are connecting dissimilar metals in the domestic water system).

The barometric damper is required by every boiler manufacturer I've seen to be at least 18" above the output of the boiler; and it can't be put on the front face of a bullhead tee per damper manufacturers instructions. Also that appears to be a woodstove damper, I could be wrong I can't see it real close.

The International Mechanical Code 2000 requires seperate boiler isolation valves on the supply and return piping of the boiler, it can't be the zone shutoff valves.

Taco recommends more distance from the pump before that (3/4"?) 90* ell above the boiler piping.

The fire-o-matic valve does not replace the required shut-off valve for the boiler either according to their literature.

There is no emergency shut-off electrical switch, it would have been easy to install it on that 4 sq. electrical box.

I am interested to know about the boiler clearance also; even though it is against a non-combustible surface, most of the manufacturers still have air circulation minimum clearances, does this one not?

Unknown

Some valid points

you bring up Mark . You are right , we are hampered by time constraints - we do not want people without heat and hot water more than the 6 to 8 hours we need to complete this job .

Let me clarify a few things you pointed out , and I won't try to be a jerk doing it also .

About the orientation of the expansion tank - there is no way to pipe it in per manufacturers specs without it either blocking a critical part that needs to be accessed , or being piped in at the point of no pressure change .

Unions on the tankless heater - why is that a necessity ? I have installed hundreds upon hundreds of boilers with coils and I never used unions . I've replaced a few coils and I don't think unions actually would have saved me any time at all . And why dielectric ? Are copper and brass fittings that dissimilar ? Never seen a buildup of sediment just at the copper by male ells either .

The damper - are you kidding ? 18 inches above the boiler and it would be in the cutomer's wood shelves . It would also reqire me to punch another hole into the chimney so I might as well throw out the cover that hides the boiler . This is the only way to install a damper at all , believe me I tried using an ell and a tee , no dice . And it is NOT a woodstove damper , whatever that is .

Separate isolation valves on supply and return - not a requirement here , but when I do have the room , I install both for each zone . And this boiler DOES HAVE EM on both supply and return for the 2 zones .

Recommended distance from the pump to the ell - see the post about the damper .

The fireomatic valve does not replace the reqired shutoff valve - there is a shutoff valve on the above ground tank . And what is the point of having a firomatic VALVE , without exercizing it by opening and closing it on a tuneup ? Ever have the valve stick open when you close it ? Symptoms of a valve that wasn't touched in a long time .

No emergency shutoff switch , easily installed - the switch is on the kitchen wall , not 2 feet away from the boiler , making another switch on the boiler redundant .

Boiler clearances and air circulation - this boiler has a minimum RECOMMENDED clearance , for service purposes only , and with the thousands of installs , never had an issue of not enough air .

Mark , I know you took some time to pour over this install , and in a perfect world some of your points are valid ( although , sorry to say , some are just nitpicky ) . But take a closer look at the cover that goes over the whole boiler and pipework . There are literally thousands on thousands of these boilers out there , and if we did everything by your valid points , each and every boiler would have to be moved to the homeowner's garage , or they will be shut down indefinitely . If moving it out of the kitchen is definitely not an option , what would you do ?

Mark Wolff

Install

You are lucky where you are. The mechanical code we have to follow in Alaska (International Mechanical Code 2000) covers not only new construction but also any replacements or remodels. Some of the stunning requirements we have to live by include guards around a boiler in this installation setting that extend 30" past the boiler all the way around and at least 42" high(304.9); 18" of unobstructed clearance ALL the way around the boiler(1004.3); a 36" minimum clearance above the boiler for a top outlet boiler (1004.3.1); securely anchoring the boiler to the structure (1004.4); floor drain installed by boiler (1004.6); seperate isolation valves on supply and return manifold (1005.1); emergency shut-off switch in the immediate vicinity that can be locked out!(1006.8); boiler low water cut-offs(1007.1); individual appliance fuel shut-offs in addition to the main building shut-off located at the tank(1307.2); etc. etc. etc.

We live with these codes, and forget that some of the country doesn't have to deal with them. We have to follow all of this even in remote Bush jobs (no roads to where they are, plane or boat only) where some of them don't even have running water yet, or indoor plumbing. The codes all have a good origin though they may seem extreme, but the shift we are already seeing and you will too in a few years, is to totally remove the boiler, not just to the garage, but to a seperate mechanical room, regardless of the house. Right now if we install boilers in garages, we have to elevate the boiler at least 18" to the bottom of the gun, AND put car bumper guards around it to block an accidental vehicle bump, or elevate the boiler to a minimum of 72" clearance under it(304.5). I don't think we would want to have a boiler 6' off the floor! They are trying to eliminate the CO deaths from boilers, the combustion air problems with boilers, everything. You watch, in 10-20 years, you won't be able to install a boiler in a house at all, you'll have to extend the piping to a seperate mechanical room.

As for the expansion tank, it looked like you could have moved it to the washing machine wall.

Unions are needed to not only allow access to the tankless coil for inspection, cleaning and repair, but also it allows easier access to the tempering valve if it needs to be removed. Dielectrics may be required by the administrative authority according to the Uniform Plumbing Code 2000 (510.4); the reason for installing them isn't the copper coil to copper pipe, its the steel tankless coil flange plate that the brass street 90's or copper male adapters thread into that will cause electrolosis.

In AK the shelves above the boiler would have had to go anyways, so the tap into the chimney could have been higher. In your case, I would probably have come off the boiler with an adjustable 90 turned to about 45 degrees or whatever lined up with the chimney opening, and run another adjustable 90 down toward the first from the stack. Installed a little stove pipe and a draw band and sealed it with high temp stack tape. It would make me sleep better at night not wondering if the barometric damper was going to malfunction (high wind can jam them at all sorts of wierd angles) and let boiler exhaust right into the kitchen. I'm sure they don't have great ventilation in there anyways.

The woodstove damper is black in color and made from a lighter gauge of metal, it has no slots for an adjustment weight for tuning the baro damper to the stack.

That 90 right after? the pump would wear out quickly due to the excessive turbulent flow coming from the pump, if it is on the inlet side of the pump, air and water turbulence from coming around that corner can cause pump cavitation. Even if you can't move it the whole recommended distance, a few more inches even would have greatly alleviated any noticable problems.

The fire-o-matic valves should be excercised like you said, but many people count it as their only shut-off valve, and when it breaks, they have to dump a bunch of fuel in a pan or onto rags while they then replace it with the quick but incorrect threaded ball valve with thread by compression adapters (no compression on fuel lines, flare or braze or thread only.)

I didn't notice the boiler shut-off switch you mentioned, that's why I asked, all I saw was new MC cable coming up from the floor to the junction box. Once again, here in AK it has to have a lockout on it too.

All installs have to meet the manufacturers minimum recommended clearances, unless a more stringent code is required by your jurisdiction. Installing in any other fashion is grounds to void a warranty. It's just a good idea that if they say it needs 6" minimum clearance behind it, you should give it to them, even if you have to move pipes on the floor in front of it.

Hope this gives you some thoughts for any future installs that present some of these problems. Like I said, time down has to be short on swap outs, and the best you can do is just that. I just wanted to bring up some items that you may not have thought about. Are you left or right coast by the way?

Unknown

Boy are we working

in different worlds , so to say . Alaska sounds like the most stringent in code requirements out of all the states , even Mass .

I work on Long Island in New York . This job was installed in Levittown , which is part of Hempstead Town , the most populated town in the country . If we were restricted by the codes you have to adhere to in your state , many , many people would be without heat and hot water for long periods of time . There are over 17,000 homes in Levittown , which is a small fraction of the homes in this area that would not come close to meeting the codes in your state . Even in 10 to 20 years , there is not even the slightest chance that homeowners will be required to move their boilers to separate mechanical rooms . I can understand the point of following codes , but giving the homeowner no choice but to move the boiler , a new boiler , to a separate mechanical room is just ridiculous .

As a followup to some of your statements -

Moving the expansion tank to the washing machine wall is not an option . Like I said , everything has to be inside the cabinet the boiler sits under . I have taken out expansion tanks that sit exactly like this with date codes from the 1980s , still pressurized , so the problem is not as bad as you might think .


Dielectric unions on the coil - still have not seen evidence of electrolysis when they are not used . And almost all of our boilers utilize a coil , and I do look at the old boiler coil when I scrap it .

About the draft damper - you imply you would have not used one at all instead of the way I had to do this one ? What happens when the draft is so strong that it sucks the flame right off the end cone ? Pontentially dangerous situation too ? I think I made the best of a not so optimal situation .

Wear and tear on the circ is just hogwash . I have never , and noone I work with , has installed the flowvalve the minimum 12 inches past the circ , and there has not been a catastrphic breakdown of circs or fittings . It just does not happen .

The firomatic - are you saying that you should not rely on it as a shutoff valve solely because it might be replaced by a regular valve in the future ?

Install meeting manufacturers clearances - if you do not meet the minimum , it is not grounds for a void in warantee if it is a recommendation only . Otherwise it would be called a REQUIREMENT .

Mark , I know this job would not meet some codes in some states . I try to do the best I can with whats given to me , and follow the rules as best I can also . At the end of the day I can honestly say that what I installed in a homeowner's house is by far safer than what was in there . Thank you for your insight of what you are required to adhere to in Alaska , its amazing .

Unknown

Boy are we working

in different worlds , so to say . Alaska sounds like the most stringent in code requirements out of all the states , even Mass .

I work on Long Island in New York . This job was installed in Levittown , which is part of Hempstead Town , the most populated town in the country . If we were restricted by the codes you have to adhere to in your state , many , many people would be without heat and hot water for long periods of time . There are over 17,000 homes in Levittown , which is a small fraction of the homes in this area that would not come close to meeting the codes in your state . Even in 10 to 20 years , there is not even the slightest chance that homeowners will be required to move their boilers to separate mechanical rooms . I can understand the point of following codes , but giving the homeowner no choice but to move the boiler , a new boiler , to a separate mechanical room is just ridiculous .

As a followup to some of your statements -

Moving the expansion tank to the washing machine wall is not an option . Like I said , everything has to be inside the cabinet the boiler sits under . I have taken out expansion tanks that sit exactly like this with date codes from the 1980s , still pressurized , so the problem is not as bad as you might think . I can honestly sat that they can fail in any position you orient them in .

Dielectric unions on the coil - still have not seen evidence of electrolysis when they are not used . And almost all of our boilers utilize a coil , and I do look at the old boiler coil when I scrap it .

About the draft damper - you imply you would have not used one at all instead of the way I had to do install this one ? With no damper what happens when the draft is so strong that it sucks the flame right off the end cone ? Pontentially dangerous situation too ? I think I made the best of a not so optimal situation . And yes , if there is a blockage at the chimney breech , even a properly piped vent damper will spill out fumes .

Wear and tear on the circ is just hogwash . I have never , and noone I work with , has installed the flowvalve the minimum 12 inches past the circ , and there has not been a catastrophic breakdown of circs or fittings . It just does not happen .

The firomatic - are you saying that you should not rely on it as a shutoff valve solely because it might be replaced by a regular valve in the future ?

Install meeting manufacturers clearances - if you do not meet the minimum , it is not grounds for a void in warantee if it is a recommendation only . Otherwise it would be called a REQUIREMENT .

Mark , I know this job would not meet some codes in some states . I try to do the best I can with whats given to me , and follow the rules as best I can also . At the end of the day I can honestly say that what I installed in a homeowner's house is by far safer than what was in there . Thank you for your insight of what you are required to adhere to in Alaska , its amazing .

Dan Foley

Ron...

It is a miracle you can get it all to fit in such a tight space - much less complete the job in one day. It would take me three or four days to do what you do in a day, and yours would still probably look better. Keep up the GREAT work! -DF

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