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Steam Radiator?
Gus Allen
Member Posts: 1
Some of the first-floor large radiators in my steam heat system were replaced 30 years ago with smaller radiators
(L 49"/H19" ?D5"). Questions: 1) When the heat comes on in the morning, one in our living room remains stone cold. What can I do to get heat in that one? 2) On each of these radiators there is a round valve on the lower left hand side of the radiator. Is there any annual maintenance required on these valves and if so, what need I (or a plumber) do? 3) I have dirty water in my very old system. Is ther a way to clean it? Every summer I drain the system and start in the fall with clear water.
(L 49"/H19" ?D5"). Questions: 1) When the heat comes on in the morning, one in our living room remains stone cold. What can I do to get heat in that one? 2) On each of these radiators there is a round valve on the lower left hand side of the radiator. Is there any annual maintenance required on these valves and if so, what need I (or a plumber) do? 3) I have dirty water in my very old system. Is ther a way to clean it? Every summer I drain the system and start in the fall with clear water.
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Comments
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Steam Radiator?
Just got my house in August - it's about 60-70 years old. The home inspector told me I've got steam heat, and that there's radiators behind these panels that are in the walls.
Heat hasn't been working very well, so I took a panel off to try to see what I can see. I was surprised by what I found (see attached) - doesn't look much like a radiator to me! The pipe on the left side is real hot, but it's cool on the right-hand side... Is this thing even considered a radiator? Can you tell if it's steam or hot water just from the picture?
The old owner kept all her receipts and already tried to get the lack of heat problem fixed, but it apparently didn't work. I'm trying to educate myself a little bit so that I don't pay to have nothing done like she did! Any help would be greatly appreciated!0 -
It's steam,
2 pipe, probably vapor.
Definitely saveable.
The instruction book for that system is right here. I GUARANTEE that you will find your answer in this book.
You'll laugh a bit, too. This is how he writes....
http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=25
Here's the book about YOUR system.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-30 -
It's a later-model Vapor system
like Noel says- possibly Dunham, Trane or Webster. Have you located any names or other info on the traps (that round thing on the return pipe with the hexagonal head) or anything in the piping around the boiler? If so, this will help us identify it. That type of heat emitter is called a "convector".
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
I pulled off the wall panels in front 2 of the ones that don't seem to be working... The writing on the trap on the one pictured is:
Barnes & Jones Inc
122
Boston
- That's the one where the heat seems to make it halfway through... Another one that I looked at that isn't getting any heat at all says:
Hoffman Special Co
No 17A
Waterbury, Conn
...I'm starting to get the feeling that this isn't going to be a simple do-it-yourself kind of fix, huh?0 -
Investigating it is...
and will be fun, free, and help you understand what will need to be done.
If you want to post pictures (small ones) of the boiler area, we can get a better feel for what you have.
Noel0 -
will do
I can definitely post some more pictures (gotta love the digital camera) - I'll get to that first thing after work today! Thanks for the help - I'm new to this whole home ownership thing, and it can be a little overwhelming - lots to learn...0 -
boiler
OK, here's a couple of pictures of the boiler. It was converted from oil to gas a while back, for whatever that's worth...
Incidentally, I found the bill from the company who came in here to try to fix the heat for the old owner. It said:
Increased the operating pressure of the heating system to help improve heating on the 2nd floor.
- from what I've read on this site, it doesn't sound like I should go to those guys for my heating needs, huh?0 -
Operating Pressure
as designed on that system is probably 8 ounces or so. No, you don't want to have the same tech come back.
The piping connecting the boiler to the system is also wrong. There's no header, and the copper pipe joints in the steam line may break from expansion. I've attached a picture of what a proper header might look like on a boiler with only one steam outlet. This one's on a Burnham, but the Weil-McLain piping diagram is probably similar.
On your system, the air passes thru the traps and out thru a central air vent on the dry (overhead) return. I don't see a vent in your pics- is there one?
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
vent
there's a vent, I believe - it wasn't too clear in those pictures. here's one of the vent, and a side-view. there's also another vent on the other side of the basement...
sounds like i've got more to worry about than a few bad traps and insulating the steam pipes...
is it possible that the piping isn't so bad, but that i just didn't capture it all in the picture? there's a lot of pipes going into the back of the boiler that look similar to the setup on your picture... you'll have to pardon my ignorance - i'm starting to get in over my head!0 -
Stick with it
The learning curve gets less steep in a while.
Send for the book. You'll learn how to save that much money every month forever.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-3
If you don't, at least start with the instruction book that came with your boiler. The manufacturer can send you one.
The first and second thing you need to do are to insulate everything and change the piping so that it's correct. There's a drawing in the book with dimensions on it.
You'll be seeing a payback, then. After that you can balance it so it's nice and smooth. You'll have a nice system.
Noel0 -
That's either a Hoffman #75 or #76 vent
which is probably too small for that system. I like to use Gorton #2 vents on Vapor systems- they were originally designed for Gorton's Vapor system way back when.
Also, are there vents on the steam mains? Or radiator traps piped between the steam mains and dry returns? If not, this could explain some of your steam distribution problems.
If no one in your area handles Gortons, call them at 908-276-1323. Talk to Ken Kunz and tell him I sent you.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Sent away for the book today - looking forward to getting it! Should be pretty helpful...
As for the vents - there's one other on the other side of the boiler just like the one pictured from a few messages ago. They both seem to be on separate return lines. There's another vent on the other side of the basement, which is on a main steam line (see below), but then that line seems to be connected to a return line? It's weird. Would I replace all 3 of these with the Gorton #2s? Is it just a matter of shutting off the boiler, and unscrewing the old and screwing in the new? Would that be a big improvement?
Started insulating the pipes today - thinking that ought to be a big help.
Thanks again for all the help Noel and Steamhead... It's pretty interesting stuff!0 -
See that trap on the cross-over pipe?
That guy lets the air out of the supply main and into the high return, but keeps the steam in the supply main. The vents on the returns let the air out and back in, so the water doesn't get trapped by vacuum.
Your high return should never be steam temperature. That would be a sign of a trap blowing steam through it. It should be around 90-150 degrees, depending on weather.
Noel0 -
steam radiators
What is the problem, if any, when only the top of the radiator gets warm/hot- when the room is still cold?
Also, what happens if you leave a vent off of a radiator?
What should the pitch be on the radiator, and if there is no pitch, what effect would this have.
How do you know if you can add another radiator to an existing system?
Finally, in the picture attached, is the "green vent" the main vent? How do you know if it is not working and needs to be replaced?
Thanks,
Alan0 -
Before I answer your questions
I have to say, you really need a pro to look at that system. The piping around the boiler is all wrong, there is no header, no equalizer and no Hartford Loop. That boiler looks like a Burnham, and they can send you the proper piping diagram. See my post above for what a proper header might look like.
I'm assuming this is a one-pipe system since you mention vents. This means there's only one pipe connected to each radiator. If this is not the case or you're not sure, take a pic of a radiator and post it here.
If a radiator doesn't heat up all the way, it might be due to a bad or too-small vent on the radiator or on the steam main. Or missing pipe insulation.
If you leave a vent off a radiator, the room will fill with steam and the boiler water level will drop. If the feeder doesn't replace the water or stop the burner, the boiler will crack and you'll have to replace it. BTW, you should open the drain on the bottom of the feeder to flush it out once each week- this keeps it clean inside so the float can operate.
On a one-pipe system, the radiator should be level or pitch slightly toward the steam pipe connection.
If you want to add a radiator, you need to see if the steam main and the boiler will support the added load.
Yes, that green vent is a main vent. It's a Hoffman #75 or maybe a 76. You should hear some air coming from this vent when the system makes a cold start, as for example having been set back at night. Once the steam reaches the vent, it should close. If it leaks steam when hot or doesn't vent any air when cold, replace it. If it's on the end of a steam main, measure the length and diameter of the main and we can tell you if it's the right size.
Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate someone who can help you. If you're in the Baltimore area, e-mail me!
Also get a copy of Dan's book "We Got Steam Heat", available on the Books and More page of this site.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
oh, my gosh
thats some seriously ugly plumbing,,,,,,,,,0 -
Steam Radiator Repair
Is it possible to disassemble and repair a cast iron radiator? I have water and steam leaks at the seams at the bottom. If so what process do you recommend. Is there a sealant one can use at the seams?
Thank you
John0 -
You have leaky push-nipples
which can be replaced. But I wonder why they rotted out? I'll bet your system is not vented properly- this can turn the condensate into a mild acid.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Uck!
and not just the steam pipes... the line off the relief doesn't look like it quite makes it to within 6"-12" of the floor either.0
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