Stumped on a steam job

GW

Hi Guys,

I wrote a couple of weeks ago about a steam rad that was sucking water at the end of the cycle. Thanks for the comments- although something new has come into the light. Because the old mains were wrapped in fiberglass, which covered the original and still-there asbestos, I never ever thought that the steam mains would reduce in size.

So the home owner is wondering why the old boiler worked and the new one is having a hard time. Does anyone have an idea?

Here's what I found out today. It's a classic perimeter loop, about 70' total around the rectangular patern main. The 2" leaves the boiler into the header, into the horizontal main, goes about 9' or so, takes a 90 turn, goes about 10' and reduces to 1 1/2" at the next 90. Then the 1 1/2" cruises down the other side of the basement, about 17', then at that 90, it again drops, now to 1 1/4". Another 10" over and then 90 back to the boiler for another 8' or so.

Now it makes a little more sense why that last rad was struggling to heat up, and perhaps answers why the mystery vacuum- there must be standing water with the parrellel flow reductions in the main- bushing too I might add.

The big puffy insulation had me fooled. Is there anything that can happen? I mentioned the probability of a re-pipe, and he wanted me to make sure there wasn't anything else that could be done.

The radiator load is in my notes somewhere, if anyone really need to know I can add it up again. The new Boiler is a Smith GB200-5.

Thanks for the help,

Gary Wilson

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[Deleted User]

is this a counterflow pipe?

if its parrallel flow than why is it decreasing in size...so at the end there would be less steam needed yes, but groups more condensate than at the begining..or am i missing something here? what was the pressure on the last boiler compared to the new? what was the calculated steam velocity exiting the old boiler verses the new boiler?

GW

NO

Parrellel flow, and the pitch is good, 1" per 20'. New #77 at the end where it should be. The main is hot at the end, but the last rad simply doesn't get warm. New vent on it too. One of the guys mentioned a Gorton #2, but I'm thinking that the decreasing main is my biggest problem at the moment.

Unfortunately, I didn't check the pressure on the old system before I took it out... didn't know this would come back to bite me!

Interestingly, the old boiler didn't have an equalizer, nor a Hartford loop.

Another slight issue is that there's a 29' 1" branch with next to no pitch, that feed a second floor bathroom rad- I'm thinking I may have to drip this at the end and come back wet.

Thanks,

Gary

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[Deleted User]

okay, so all the condensate

flows to the end of the main then i assume drops to a wet return? but the main is reduced..question1-does the end of the main get hot because steam is present or because hot condensate is present? question2- if you take the radiator vent off the radiator and run the system, does the radiator heat? question3- can you drip the main to a wet return at each point it reduces in size with bushings? question4- is the wet return existing and old? it may be plugged or semi plugged backing water up the end of the main..

GW

question1-does the end of the main get hot because steam is present or because hot condensate is present? >>>> I don't know- I would think steam. The last rad vent is puffing a little bit, but it could be condensate as well.

question2- if you take the radiator vent off the radiator and run the system, does the radiator heat? >>>> I didn't try that. I did get the radiator to heat with the vent on when I had the tstat maxed- so it does eventually heat but the other rads are maxed out at this point- wicked hot.

question3- can you drip the main to a wet return at each point it reduces in size with bushings? >>>>I suppose I could, but it might be easier just to repipe the main by the time I sawed into the main 2 times and got a hand threader up there.

question4- is the wet return existing and old? it may be plugged or semi plugged backing water up the end of the main.. >>>> There currently in no wet return, all perimeter steam main until it drops to the boiler.

Also, no surprise I guess, but the closer to the boiler supply, the faster and hotter the rads get. As I go around towards the last one at the return, it seams like the rads are less and less able to get toasty.

Thanks,

Gary


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[Deleted User]

in my minds eye

i'm seeing a whole lot of condensate from the first radiators coming back into a main that gets increasingly smaller...seems to me that the rush of condesate is killing the steam at the other end of the main...thats what i'm seeing in my head...the fact that it eventually gets hot at the end radiator would somewhat support this as the first radiators are now baking hot and making much less condensate than it did when it was cold..

lisa

the system worked

properly before the boiler install, correct? did you pipe the near boiler piping to spec? hoe many, and What size risers and header do you have? What is your pressure set at? No wet returns?? On a parallel flow one pipe system the condensate has to drain somewear. wear does it drain?

[Deleted User]

hi steve

it apparently comes back around the ceiling to the boiler where it drops into the hartford loop i assume from the description..but the pipe reduces in size...that can't be right..that would raise the water level in the pipe..not to mention increase the waters velocity me thinks..he's taking the customers word that the radiator worked with the old boiler..who really knows...

Mad Dog

Hi Gary can you post scetches and pictures...

it would really help. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Be careful....it \"always worked fine before you changed out

the boiler..." I've taken many on the chin over the years because I didn't do a little survey and physical check before ripping out the old dog. Sometimes the boiler is crapped out and you can't, but always do one if you can. Its even happened to me on sink replacements. You don't bother to check the drain before you rip out the old one and now the new one won't drain. Gary, I know you are a very conscientious guy, be careful they that are leveling with you. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Gimme a call on the cell...i'll figure it out

happy thanksgiving Mad Dog 516 903-9268

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GW

reply

It's a typical perimeter deal where the main travels around the basement, not all that big of a system I might add. It simply drops to the boiler at the end of the main. There's 11 rads, 4 up stairs and 7 down. Because of the wrapped insulation, I never realized the main decreased- lesson learned!

Yes, the near boiler piping is good, I'll post a pic when i get back to my office, I'm sipping a cup of joe at my friends house at the moment.

Thanks for all the help

Gary

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GW

yep

I hear ya, I can only trust the owner is telling me the truth, I believe he is too.

Gary

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GW

Thanks MD

I'll give you a buzz next week when I get back over there.

Gary

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Unknown

Lost Art of Steam Heating has it for you...

If you start at page 85, you'll find it. I think the example on page 90 is close to what you have.

Noel

Steamhead

One way out of this

might be to drill and tap the bottom of each reducer fitting for 1/2" or 3/4" pipe, and run a drip pipe from each reducing fitting into a wet return. This would get rid of the puddles of condensate forming there. The same technique could be used on that long runout with no pitch.

Then vent the heck out of that main.

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Tony Brown

drip mains

Regarding steam systems, I've seen this statement on several posts, "To get rid of the water, you have to drip the mains." To a layman, what does this mean and how is it done? Can anyone do it?

Unknown

A drip is a pipe that carries the condensed water away from a steam carrying pipe and into a return pipe, so that it doesn't have to be returned under the steam.

It can't be piped such that steam enters the return, though.

Noel

GW

thanks guys

I actaully was hoping the home owner would tune in and see the responses, but when I called him tonight to see if he did he said no.

So, I guess I'll bring the supplier in-house heat guy over there and have HIM give it a look over.

Thanks again,

Gary

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[Deleted User]

Did you

re-insulate the main?

GW

yes,

It was never "de-insulated".

Gary

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GW

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