Do you charge to do estimates?

Tom_22

Never, sometimes, all the time? How do you do it?

Jack, CVMS

Estimates

Didn't - until we realized one of the local villages was using us to do their engineering,and then doing the work in-house (with the to-be-expected) low quality. Now we charge at a slightly reduced rate from the work charge.
For customers we know will be using us, no charge.
For customers who are trying to decide whether or not they can afford to have the work done, we charge.
It cost us to get the education and experience to do a quality job and figure the costs, we can't afford to give it away.
If I can't spend my time fishing, then I'm going to charge for it. ;^))

Jim Eastman

Charge for estimates

Charge depends upon the amount of time and expertise required to generate and present a quality estimate. I generally will provide a free "ball park" estimate for the entire job to "smoke out" the budget expectations and then offer to do the heat loss calc, design, and estimate based upon material and labor anticpated to complete the job. The charge for the comprehensive, and binding, quote will be $250.00 which will be deducted from the investment the customer makes with us to complete the job. This usually flushes out the "lookie loos" and those who are just looking for design help.

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing and Heating
Boulder, CO

Mark Hunt

\"Lookie Loos\"


I like that!

Mark H

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Mad Dog

Jim and Jack great responses

I pretty much do the same thing. I , too , am tired of laying out jobs for people. If you are a regular customer, no charge, if a reg customer recommened you...maybe. Lookie loos ( I love that too) absolutely. Hot Rod calls it a trip charge which puts it in a different light to the lookie loos. Even if it is right in town, I will usually charge a $30.00 fee. Its better than nothing and covers basic paperwork. I'm in and out in 10-15 minutes. I won't even give boiler sizes, unless, they are paying me a design fee $200.00 or giving me a deposit. It weeds them right out. Some people really become incredulous: " where do you come off charging for estimates...no one else does...?" Because we can! we reply, we have work lined up year round and our time is worth something. I'd say about 25% of the lookie loos go for it. Of them, 50% will use us. I too, am hoping to turn my area around and get more companies to charge. Mad Dog

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Don Walsh

Absolutely!

Why everyone does not charge for "estimates" is beyond me. I take the position that I am a specialist in my craft, I can and will solve your problem or give you definitive answer why it cannot be solved. I charge $100 for an "on-site" consultation, if a contract is written, that amount is credited agaist the total billing. I treat all drawings and calculations as proprietory until we have completed your work, then they are included in the Owners Manual we have prepared for the project at closeout. Our initial telephone contact with the customer usually weeds out the "tire kickers" or as I have just learned to call them "looky loos!" Once our customer service rep has explained our very precise method of operation, and pre-qualified the customer, we generally have little to no resistance about the consultation charge. Incidentally, that money is charged to a credit card BEFORE we leave the office, or a check must be received as soon as we are greeted at the door. My time is valuable to me, my "free" time can be better wasted on the golf course!

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Mad Dog

I don't know why either...they feel \"guilty\" and/or they

are afraid to be bold. These types say things like: "...I can sleep at night....I'm not looking to be a millionaire...no one else does it." You know what Don, I can't sleep at night when I can't pay my bills and I feel guilty when I can be home for supper, but I'm doing 3 estimates after work for free and lucky if I get one. It's coming slowly, but I too look fowato the day that I can institute the same policy. Way to go Don!!! Mad Dog

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George_10

Expert advice

is valuable. Free advice is just that free. It may be valuable also, but will the potential customer feel that it is. I did seminars along time ago in another field. when I charged for them, I generated a much better and truely interested audience. The word free brought all kinds of lookers, but they were just info collectors.
The paying customer is interested or they would not pay.
My time is valuable and I am going to charge for it. If you do not feel your time is valuable, how can you expect the customer to think it is. It is an amazing phenomenum.

cruizer

charge

we charge for quotes, and then reimburse them if they buy their materials through us.

Mad Dog

OF all the contractors here..who charges for estimates???

and who don't????? Mad dog

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Geo_2

charges for estimates

This Thread has been a breath of fresh air and has inspired me to do what I should of done 10 years ago... "charge for estimates", see ya lookie looooos!!!.

Boilerpro_3

I charge

unless it is an existing good customer. It probably tends to weed out the jobs I wouldn't want anyway. I don't like working for pennywise, pound foolish types.

Boilerpro

Mad Dog

WHO ELSE???? C'mon guys........who is charging???????

nothing to hide......Mad Dog

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heatboy

I can estimate your price.........

from my office. The only way to give an accurate quoteis to do a heat loss and design. My designs are always in the quote, it's just sometimes my little voice lets me know if I collect the remuneration at the time of design or not. It can also act as a pre-qualifier. Especially, with builders. TIME IS MONEY, so I need to know the time I put in will bear fruit. 20 cents per square foot on a 4K square foot project is only $800. That is chump change on a $35K or $45K project, but it's high enough to know if a client is serious.

hb

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Mad Dog

Exactly heatboy!!!! and that little voice speaks...............

softly, frequently, and volumes.......In my area the Lookie loos are legion. Mad dog

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Paul_11

estimates are free, site visits are not

Great discussion. If we can get more contractors doing this more of us will make the money that we are worth.

One thing we tell our new customers is why should the customers that we do end up doing work for pay for the site visits of the "lookie loos". Everyone should pay their own way. It just makes sense.

All prices are without sales tax
Let's separate service from revovations.
NYC charges may be higher than what is right for you. You don't pay $2000 a month in parking tickets either.

PLUMBING SERVICE
Our minimum plumbing service call diagnostic charge is $60
that assumes we can see the problem. toilet runs,faucet leaks, etc. We give a price to repair.
If we have a leak from a ceiling or a wall then additional charges are given for a complete bathroom fixture leak test or to open a ceiling or a wall, etc.

HEATING SERVICE
Boiler down calls are $210.00
Heating distribution calls start at $137.50 and can go as high as $650. For example
A complete boiler and steam heating survey of a five story building with lots of banging with a report is $650.00

RENOVATIONS:
If I can estimate your job from my office from your blueprints or from a conversation with you then there is no charge.

For a Contractor who gives us all his work site visits are free
For others, small jobs like one bath or one kitchen renovation is $125
Larger jobs are $150

Connected load calculations of a five store building is $300

I find that you must keep an open line of communication with the customer. If they are reasonable they will see your point of view. If they don't you don't do business. They will still need to decide if they can afford you. It is very important to explain what you are charging for and why.
I cannot emphasize enough the importance of getting all go aheads in writing. We do no work for anyone without signatures. We are constantly reminding our techs that before they fix anything get the price agreed to in writing.
Good luck to all
Paul



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Paul Mitchell

no charge

In my area no one charges but I have seen this discussion here Before and I am getting ready to change my tune. I like the Idea of verbal quotes verse on-site estimates.
Maybe I will give it a whirl.

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Al Letellier

estimate charges

I do a fair amount of consulting work and I always charge for that (more than my hourly charge out rate). Remember, the more you charge, the more they think you know (just make sure you're worth it and good enough at what you do to charge that much).
We rarely charge for estimates. To repeat what most have already said, price shoppers get charged and refunded if we get hired. We rarely charge good, existing customers.

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Mad Dog

All the flat rate gurus tell us to never quote over the phone

but what I do is give them such a wide range that they don't know what to do...I then inform them that we can give an accurate quote ONLY by seeing the job, and that is XXXXXX amount. It works well for me right now. Mad dog

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Mad Dog

Be a pioneer, Paul!!!!!!!!

no one in my area does either!!!!! md

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Mad Dog

Just charged for one, right in the neighborhood.....

got the job. People who refuse to understand why we charge for estimates are the same ones who belittle us, talk down to us, and make comments like..."I shoudve been a plumber...you guys are crooks...." Goodbye lookie Loos!!!!!! Mad Dog

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MikeB34

estimates

I charge, but is reimbursed upon getting the job. Phone quotes are "about 200.00 to design the system" No additional info about how or anything without a site visit and the aforementioned $200.00

Dan posted a great story here a while back about estimates, and it stil applies.

estimates are free, exacts cost more

regards.

Mike B

Geo_2

charging for estimates

Did one today myself mad dog, told them theres a $50.00 fee for the estimate, 40' CI soil pipe badly pitted and covered every 5' in every tape ever made by man ( a sign of the lookie loos), came back up stairs and they told me I had the job... they did'nt need a writen estimate and to just tell them the price ( the sound of the lookie loos), I nicely asked them how would they be paying for the estimate, cash,check or credit card. after saying no twice to a cup of folgers instant and a donut ( the dance of the lookie loos) I left with my fee and signed estimate, they called at 4;00 pm and I got the job.

Mad Dog

good for you pal

md

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Fred P

next thing you know

they might try to pay you with a bunch of "clipped coupons"...


after saying no twice to a cup of folgers

> instant and a donut ( the dance of the lookie

> loos) I left with my fee and signed estimate,

> they called at 4;00 pm and I got the job.

Mad Dog

When I was young and green....some old ladies would pay me

with homemade cookies...that didn't pay the bar bills back then, so I learned fast. Mad Dog

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jackchips_2

One of the

best payments, ever, was from an "Old Lady". She gave me two home made pillows for my two daughters.

Worth much more than money.

J. Schmitt

estimates

Wow!...First of all, after reading this post let me say that, as a homeowner I am now even more apprehensive about hiring a professional heating contractor. Secondly, I agree that there are some homeowners out there that have nothing better to do than to waste a professional contractors time. But where do we find a happy medium? I know I am hanging myself out to all kinds of abuse when I say that this is one of the most un-professional whining sessions I have ever read, and 'Mad Dog' you are by far the worst! Sorry guys, but all of your arguments/reasons for charging large consultation fees don't do enough to convince me that you are the most qualified for the job! Are you someone that really knows his stuff?, has integrity?, and is honest about the work needed? Do you care about the quality of your work and make sure the job is done right the first time? Are you on-time for your appointments as well as keep them? At some time or another we've all been acquainted with the guy who wants the money up front,(show me the money!) and he is usually the first one out the door when it's happy time at the local Pub-n-Grub.
Well, that is the kind of guy I want to avoid. I would like to be able to get estimates for the work I need, by doing it the old-fashioned way, which is by calling in a couple of professionals, listening to what they can tell me, and then choosing the one that I believe is the most competent for the job and not just the lowest bidder. I can't afford to pay each one enormous consultation fees just to feed their egos and make them feel they're getting what they're "worth". Is $25.00-$30.00 dollars reasonable for a house call to assess the problem and give an estimate? I'm not asking for you to design an entirely new heating system, and give me custom blueprints on top of it, nor would I unreasonably call someone that would have to travel halfway across the state without understanding the added expense that that would incur. Do you gentlemen just acccept and pay for the first thing that comes along when you're looking for a product or service? I'm guessing probably not, because we all like to spend our money wisely, right?

Unfortunately, the work done to my homes heating system prior to my ownership is some of the sloppiest work I have ever seen! Holes sloppily busted through the hollow clay tiles to accomodate the pipe, badly soldered joints, sloppy pipe runs done more for ease of work than asthetics......It just makes me all the more determined to shop around for the right contractor. Should that cost me an arm & a leg?

On November 24, 2003 12:07 PM 'Mad Dog' says....

(Just charged for one, right in the neighborhood.....
got the job. People who refuse to understand why we charge for estimates are the same ones who belittle us, talk down to us, and make comments like..."I shoudve been a plumber...you guys are crooks...." Goodbye lookie Loos!!!!!! Mad Dog)


Mad Dog,....the fact that you would let the type of people you describe above, get to you, disturbs me. And does'nt say much for you. You pointing out this type of behavior, I liken to the sibling that screams....."MOM!!! TELL HIM TO STOP LOOKING OUT MY WINDOW! I mean, really, we've all dealt with a**hole's that have nothing better to do than scream about how insignificant & unfair life is to them, but if instead of brushing off the comments those people make you feel that every customer should have to pay for them, then customer service is not one of your finer points. Know what I mean? I apologize in advance to all the good heating contractors out there who still put the needs of their customers first and stand behind of, and are proud of their work. It's called integrity. I guess because I am currently un-employed and in need of heating help, this thread was like a thorn in my side. Trying to find work and getting by on the wife's salary has not been easy, not to mention sleeping in a bedroom that barely reaches 60 deg. at night.
Right now I'd give anything just to have customers to b***h about.
It's really not my intention to stir up controversy,
and I am sure some of you may take offense at what I've written, and I also don't begrudge you that there are some miserable customers out there, it's just another cost of doing business and one that shouldn't be passed on to all customers. I only hoped that I could remind you of what it's like to be a customer, of limited means.

Sincerely,
J. Schmitt

Warmfoot

With all due respect

Mr. Schmitt, I assume you go to work every day. And every day you do work, I assume you expect to be paid for your time. I think we all do. Do you work all day, then go home and work some more to make sure you can go to work tomorrow? Designing and quoting a heating proposal takes a lot of time. Some projects take me close to 4 hours to complete. I do a complete DETAILED heat loss calculation, design the system, do a detailed quotation (for my records), write a professional proposal, THEN assemble a binder for the customer showing them ALL the equipment we intend to use on their project and telling them why we are going to use that equipment. The quality of my proposals is the same as the quality of the work I do. I AM A PROFESSIONAL! A good portion of the proposals I do like that, I DO NOT GET!! Some of the reasons I have not got them? "I was just keeping my regular contractor honest" or "That is just not in our budget" (I gave them a budget square foot price before doing the estimate). Why do I get so detailed? To make sure, if we do the project, it was designed and thought out correctly, so I do not have to charge my customer for anything that may have been overlooked...AND to make sure I don't lose my butt for the same reason. Nothing worse than getting a quote from a contractor, then him telling you it is going to be more after he starts the job. For service work, we have a diagnosis fee....waived if we can perform the repair right then.

I can understand where you come from Mr Schmitt, but I also think that the contractor that is worried about making happy hour at the pub-n-grub is the same contractor that will pull a number from thin air for any repair or quotation you may need instead of using the education that most of us here on the WALL have.


I haven't charged for proposals in the past, but after reading this thread, I will start tomorrow!

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Mark Hunt

Wow J


You really took it to MadDog.

You spoke about "limited means". Now unless Bill Gates opens a heating busines, I doubt that you will meet a contractor with "unlimited means".

So you are OK with having several people come to your house for "free"? Do you really think it's free?

Other than the trades people, can you tell me of another professional that you EXPECT to work for free?

I do not charge for estimates J. I'll come to your house and you won't have to give me a dime.

I'll spend as much time as I deem necessary to evaluate the situation. In most cases it's about an hour and a half. Then I will come back to my office and go over the info I gathered and do the required calculations.

Once that is done I will design what I believe is the best option for your situation. Money hasn't been discussed yet so I have no way of knowing that you have "limited means". Would you be offended if I asked that? Would you be offended if I asked right off the bat about your "means"?

So tell us J, does your doctor give you free check-ups? Will he come to your house at midnight on Christmas eve? Will he honor a "competitors" coupon? Do you haggle with him about the price of his work?

Who pays for the gas I used driving to and from YOUR FREE estimate J? Who pays for the insurance J? And what about the times J, when I have to adjust my schedule to accomodate yours? My kids would like to spend time with me just like your kids like to spend time with you. If I had a dime for every Cub Scout meeting I missed going to do a "free" estimate because it was the only time J had available, I could retire.

J, if you pull into a McDonalds drive-thru and look at the menu but order nothing, you have used no-ones time but your own. When you call people to your home for "free" estimates, someone has to pay for it.

Matt Sweeney, AKA MadDog is as honest as the day is long sir, and I will NOT sit by and let ANYONE disparage his character. That man has gone through more training than you could EVER imagine. He has SACRIFICED PERSONAL TIME for his profession. You won't find him playing golf on Wednesday afternoons, and he WILL BE THERE AT 2 AM WHEN YOU NEED HIM!

GOT THAT?!?

Sorry about your current circumstance sir, but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH US! We have families, lives, and dreams. As "contractors" I guess we aren't supposed too?

You go take a good long look at those cruddy solder joints. They were done by someone that had no pride in his work. He may have started out just the opposite J, but then he was beaten down by people that felt he was NO different from all the rest, so he stopped trying. Maybe his REAL skill was never seen because some schmucko was given the job for the lower price.

Is it not possible J, that the consumers of this country are reaping what they sowed? "It's just a water heater". "It's just a boiler", "Heck! I can solder".

If you have a problem with a businessperson making money, go yell at Bill Gates.

Stay off Matt. He has passed the test. You I do not know.

Nuff said.

Mark H



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J. Schmitt

RE: With all due respect & Wow J

Sorry, Warmfoot. I didn't make too clear the fact that I am currently un-employed. (My fault,and not asking for sympathies, just underscoring the reason for my cost concerns in the first place)You asked, "Do you work all day, then go home and work some more to make sure you can go to work tomorrow?"
My answer......yes. I did when I was working. I'm a former independent contractor for a large delivery firm. After working a 10-12-14 hr. day I would have to go home & take care of all the bills, repairs to equipment, etc. whatever was necessary in running the business. (I was self incorperated)I don't know how many times I sat in the local International dealer till 2-3 in the morning, waiting for repairs to be made to my truck, then drive back to my terminal so it could be loaded for the next day, get home for a couple hours of sleep, then turn around and do another 12-14 hrs.
Now, we got paid About $1.23 per delivery stop, and yeah, I would always have those customers that lived 10 miles r/t off the main route. (I had lots of them, my route was semi-rural, hell who knows maybe some of you were my customers.) Anyway, if I had taken the attitude that prevails in this thread about how my time is more valuable, well I think that the quality of my work would have suffered and Bad Boy Bob's little Johnny wouldn't be getting his Super Mutant Ninja G.I. Joe Puppet doll that granny sent him for Christmas this year;)
But you know what? I never let that happen. I took pride in the fact that my job wasn't finished until every last package on my truck was delivered, even if that meant I would have to drive those extra 10 miles for that lousy $1.23 (Which came no where close to covering the expense of fuel for that distance in a large truck), not getting home till 9:00PM, or not to mention the time my engine gave out and $11,000.00 of savings for home down-payment went towards replacing it. And believe me, we had plenty of the type of contractor who felt it wasn't worth his time to get those delivery's that were a little further out. So he would be back at the terminal by 5:ooPM with half a truck of undelivered packages, which he would just drive around with, day after day, until he felt he accumulated enough stops to justify driving out that way. (Hey maybe some of you were his customers? Ever been sitting around wondering why that merchandise you ordered two weeks ago hasn't arrived yet?) My point is/was that it is un-professional behaviour. When I chose that line of work, I knew going in that there are some losses that are a part of doing business. The fact that I and other fellow contractors who accepted those losses and maintained a positive and professional attitude towards our is I'm sure one of the reasons that in my ten years with that company it and my route doubled in size.
And now to answer Mark Hunt who asks "So you are OK with having several people come to your house for "free"? Do you really think it's free?" No, that is not what I meant to imply. Reading the post I saw some pretty hefty numbers being tossed around for consultations. With the predicament I'm in right now, it makes me more apprehensive about calling someone in just to get an idea of what could be wrong and how much it could cost. I'm thinking maybe I should just go out and purchase an electric blanket to get by with until I'm at least working again and can afford to pay for the consultations. (By the way, we have some money in savings and it may be enough to cover repairs but I probably won't find that out for fear of consultation fees eating up what could go towards repair.) Every profession has it's share of users and abusers and I'm sure you've all felt their sting at one time or another, I know I have. If I have one guy come in and tell my thermonuclear expansion jet thrusters are wasted and my entire heating system needs to be replaced and the next guy comes in and correctly diagnoses a $12.00 part failure,......
(I will state here that as the customer, I feel it's my own responsibility for watching/paying attention to what the contractor is doing, how he handles himself professionly, what he has to say about the problem, etc., and using those judgements as part of the basis for deciding who is giving me the correct diagnosis. In the real world with a case like this where the estimates are so radically far apart, maybe a third opinion would be necessary. Is it me?, or do you see where this could get expensive before the first wrench is even turned?)
........ should I be obligated to pay the first guy his $200.00 consultation fee? Chances are if I consulted him first, then he's already got that consultation fee check, and I've got a snowballs chance in hell of recovering it. And as I stated in my earlier post, NO! I don't believe it would be fair to expect one of you guys to design me an entirely new system for 'free'. My question was "would $25.00-$30.00 be fair for a housecall to diagnose a heating problem?" I'm talking for someone that is local. And your point about the doctor doesn't wash with me, first of all because it's apples & oranges to compare brain surgery, the ability to sustain life, etc. to leaking boiler pipes. Now before you all accuse me of over-simplifing your work, let me assure you thats not what I mean. I don't have your skills and am far from implying that I could hang with the best of you. But the two just aren't the same, Nuff Said! Besides if I could carry insurance against plumbing failures, I would. And if medical insurance didn't exist? yeah, we'd all probably be doing a little shopping around there too.
And as for "Matt Sweeney, AKA MadDog is as honest as the day is long sir, and I will NOT sit by and let ANYONE disparage his character. That man has gone through more training than you could EVER imagine. He has SACRIFICED PERSONAL TIME for his profession. You won't find him playing golf on Wednesday afternoons, and he WILL BE THERE AT 2 AM WHEN YOU NEED HIM!

GOT THAT?!?"

Well I didn't call him dishonest nor do I feel that I "disparaged his character". I stated that his whining seemed highly un-professional and child like, and I stand by my opinion whole-heartedly. Hey, he may be a hell of a guy when you get to know him, but I don't agree with his perspective that all customers are nothing but 'Lookie Loos!' that need to be charged excessivley for the privelage of his or any other contractors divine presence.
And as for,
"You go take a good long look at those cruddy solder joints. They were done by someone that had no pride in his work. He may have started out just the opposite J, but then he was beaten down by people that felt he was NO different from all the rest, so he stopped trying. Maybe his REAL skill was never seen because some schmucko was given the job for the lower price."

Now you've got me crying in my Wheaties.....Please spare me this poor excuse. If you would allow yourself to be "beaten down by people that felt he was NO different from all the rest" then you're making excuses for sloppy work and perhaps would be better suited to a nice, safe, insulated job of some type, where the big bad people won't hurt your feelings and call you names. Nuff Said! Now, I hope you feel you know me a little better.

Regards,
J Schmitt

gary_6

25 or 30 bucks to diagnose a heating problem

Do you really expect a serviceman to come to your house for 25 dollars? The problem I see here is YOU don't know the cost of being in business. It cost alot of money to turn the key to my truck each day with insurance premiums, truck repairs, health insurance I could go on and on. I don't want to insult you but customers like you I don't even bother with I tell them I'm to busy to go call someone else because I cannot make a profit with a customer like you. Why am I going to come to your house to diagnose your heating system problem if I can't make money off you. I provide a service and I should be compensated for that service. I rather sit home with my feet up on the couch watching TV with my kids then go to your house diagnose your problem for 25 dollars and then have You haggle me over the price of the repair. I've been their and done that. I fire customers all the time and I would fire you by telling you I'm swamped with calls you have to get someone else as I changed the channel on my TV.

Bryan_5

J,
Did you ever consider the fact that if someone charges you for his time he is probably very good at what he does? That the guy that gives you a detailed plan of action is going to do as he says or he knows you are going to sue him. If you noticed these guys almost all said they dont charge regular good customers. Now if you are going to go and **** them out to the low ball bidder you are no longer a good customer. In my opinion if you are going to hire someone maybe you should do your homework upfront before you even have a problem. This reminds me of a quote I recently heard

"A lack of planning on your part, does not cause an emergency on my part"

You need to remember you are going to pay no matter what! If you go to the guy that is the cheapest you usually get what you paid for. Then you will wind up paying the guy you didnt want to give the $100 to, which he was going to take off of your bill if he got the work in the first place.

Now this is all from a homeowners perspective I do not work in the trades. But I know enough to realize that if I call a guy and he shows up quickly why is that? Maybe he doesnt have much to do. Why is that? He is probably the cheapest guy as well. If you cant afford to pay a small consultant fee how will you be able to pay for the proper professional job?
Bryan

Fred P

J Schmidt are you for real?

Your sarcasm and free email address make me think your someone else hiding behind a fake name. If you're not then consider this:

This is the busiest time of year for heating people, with everyone turning on their heat on the first cold day and all the service calls that follow, you can imagine how busy they must be.

Now consider this, who comes out to your house for a repair for less that $100? hardly anybody.. thats how it is.. If you call a pro for every small job in your house you will go broke (change a washer, snake a kitchen drain, change an electrical outlet, etc) but do you think a pro will come do those jobs for next to nothing? Another point is that in some locations you have to factor in a parking ticket for every job. Look at NYC manhattan, every job gets at least 1 ticket that costs $105 for double parking. Now who pays that $105?? Dont give me that arguement about parking legally- sometimes you don't have a choice.

So my advice to you is call the heating guys out by you who don't charge for estimates/house calls - heck you know nothing about them.

On this site however you will get to know the guys who do know what they are doing and are very good at it.

As far as Mad Dog goes, this guy built a steam system from scratch, posts pics of some of his work for all to see (and not in the bragging way) and has an excellent reputation for quality work. Why should he have to run around town all the time for people who are just fishing for prices or looking to pick his brains for ideas and have thier "standby" plumber (or themselves) then do the work? If I were him Id charge you double!

Some people will pay $100 for a heating contract year after year and not have anybody show up (or a quick 15 min checkup by the newest guy in the shop) and say nothing, but will complain when the hands on guy or owner wants to charge a fee for an estimate. Yeah I know there are a few scammers out there who make a living just charging for estimates and giving you prices that are so far out that you would never hire them- but painting that brush to some of the guys on here is really unfair.....

Warmfoot

Sounds like we are talking

about two different fees. The fees I discussed were towards new construction or remodel designs and estimates. My average new construction radiant floor installation is approximately 20-25K. If a person is going to spend that amount, and are serious, they certainly can afford a $200.00 Estimate. At least they would be smart if they did. If that customer opts to use my company, that $200.00 is credited to the cost of the job. (Starting today!!) We also charge a $85.00 diagnosis fee for service. Credited to the customer if they opt for us to do the repairs. We have maintenance agreement customers that do not get charged a diagnosis fee due to the fact that they are existing customers and we know we will perform any repairs anyway.

Most of the contractors on this site are very busy and are "in demand". Why would a contractor want to spend his time doing "free" estimates not knowing if that potential customer is serious when he could be using that same time servicing customers he KNOWS are serious? If I could weed out the "lookie loos", I can actually give my serious customers a better price on want they want because I don't have to add the extra overhead to my price!!

As you know, being an independant contractor yourself, the goal of your company is to provide a quality service AND create profit. That is the intention of every contractor on this site. Customers who are not serious about using my services and waste my time take away from my profit!

Ernie Bogue
Master Hydronics LLC

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Dave DeFord

This is an interesting thread

I too am a Professional in the most conservative sense of the word - I have a Batchelors degree in Accounting; a CPA Certificate and a Masters Degree in Taxation - however don't let any of that fool you - I can still twist wrenches with the best of them. I also can see that there is a lot so misunderstanding on both sides here. First of all the decision as to whether or not to provide free estimates is a business decision pure and simple. The guys that provide free estimates do it to get their foot in the door with the homeowner or business owner. The guys that charge for estimates are likely busy enough that they feel that they can charge for estimates and not hurt their income. The decision is up to the individual on both sides. If the homeowner wants a free estimate he can simply not ask the guy that charges to come out to his house. Likewise the guy that wants to charge for estimates can refuse to go to someones house that doesn't want to pay for an estimate. It's called competition folks and I don't think that anyone should have to apologize for whatever side they are on.

As to the incompent competition look at my business - any jerk in the world that can spell TAX can hang a sign out (at least in Michigan and I believe most other states) stating that they are a Tax Preparer. Well guess, what folks the client goes to jail not the tax preparer and I have seen lots of fraudlent tax returns prepared by these type of folks. Just like the post I saw here the other day about the family that was poisoned by a poor boiler installation and the daughter suffered permanent brain damage. Yes, Mr. Schmidt both a poor plumber and a poor doctor can both cost you your life. At least the plumber has the guts to look you in the eye when he gives you your bill - when was the last time your doctor did that? In fact the last time I asked my doctor what he charged for something he said that he didn't know! What kind of way is that to run a business!

As to your trucking business I think that you need to look at your business practices. Just like the plumber that doesn't want to waste their time on a job they most likely won't get I think that you should look at why you would drive 10 miles for 12.3 cents per mile. I know that I wouldn't. No sir, it is not "part of the business" it is a money losing proposition from the get go. Yes I live out in the country. I live just about 10 miles from the center of the closest town of any size and no I don't expect someone to drive to my house for $1.23. Maybe the guys that didn't drive those miles for free weren't so stupid after all.

As to Mad Dog wanting to charge $250 for an estimate. If you don't like his price then don't hire him. But also don't whine if the guy that you hire doesn't do the job. What I did the last time I needed a job done (a new roof) and didn't have a clue as to who to hire I went to the local building supply company asked them for two roofers that they could recommend and got estimates from both of them (yes they were free). Did I hire the cheapest one - yes I did. However I'm sure that I could have found the job cheaper, but I was as interested in quality as I was in price, thus the reason that I asked for recommendations. By the way, I'm selling this house so I am not going to get the benefit of the work! The point being that if all you are interested in is price then you will get what you pay for. I also would not have objected to a reasonable price for the estimate and a roofing estimate is quite a bit easier than a boiler estimate. Just for your information the price went up for the roof as there were bad boards under the old roof - and I didn't complain because I didn't want to waste the roofers time crawling around my attic looking for bad boards that were only going to change the price a little bit (less than $500).

However the plumbers here also need to understand that a new boiler or a new heating system is a big expense for for most homeowners - the new boiler in my house cost $ 7,700 10 years ago (prior to my purchasing the house but the former owner was kind enough to leave me the paperwork). I haven't paid that much for anything other than houses and cars in my life. Most cars come with a warranty. The point being, that to ask someone to pay $ 250-300 for an estimate is likely going to scare off some folks that would be good customers. Likewise I can see your point in not wanting to do estimates for free for "lookey loos". Yes, I've had them too. I think that from a business standpoint that you should probably be somewhere in the $ 50-75 range if you want to charge for estimates and maybe you could charge the $ 250-300 if a customer wants a fixed price price contract that they expect you to live with. Maybe you should look at the automobile service industry for a model. Most auto repair garages charge a $35-75 diagnostic charge with the repairs being billed separately.

Personally I think that there are folks out of line on both sides here Mr. Schmidt is complaining about being out of work and expection some consideration for it (have you refused work that didn't pay what you wanted to earn) and some of the contractors that think that every homeowner is out to screw them. Most folks are somewhere in the middle and don't want to pay a lot to get estimates but also don't want to take the first price they get. This is why I went to the local building supply company to get the names of two good contractors - ones that pay their bills and do good work. I got two and I am sure the I would have been happy with either one. I also didn't hire another roofer that was $ 1,000 cheaper. Nuff said?

Mad Dog

Schmitty, my boy, your long-winded rant speaks volumes

about the type of customer you are: The dreaded lookie loo: "Heh, take it easy...I'm out of work now...can't you do any better?....how would you run the pipe? I was going to do this job myself, but I'm too busy....my cousin Joey said this shouldn't cost me more than XXXXXX" You have too much time on your hands, pal. I am the real deal, and I prove it everyday in the boiler rooms of Long Island. Why do I charge for estimates for strangers? Because I can!!! I am in demand...my reputation precedes me. The fellas here at the Wall are the Elite of this industry...we are all busy yearround, have very loyal customer bases and we get what we are worth....Whiner??? Hmmm that's a first! You do a very good job of whining yourself. Sorry, for venting, pal....We are not robots here, anybody would get sick of wasting their precious time on tirekickers like yourself. Our company is known for the highest caliber of work, superior service, and yes!!!!!!!!we don't come cheap!!!!! The only complaint we ever get is that our prices are high - oh well!!! I'll take that. oh yeah...one more thing...Does your boiler room look like this?????

Mad Dog

Very well Said, Dave............................................

market economy....free trade...choices...American Way!!!! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Thank you for the support, Mark, Bryan, Jim

and all you other fine walleyes (yeah that's what i like to call ya....I know its a Lake Trout not a Walleye, but I'm going to have to wait till Mark Hunt Takes me Walleye Fishing on Saratoga Lake...love fishin )It means a lot....Mad Dog

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Unknown

To Dave D.

Wonderful post, but I'd like to point out the diagnostic fee differences.

For $35, does the car mechanic come to your house, at a time convienient to you, for that money?

My thoughts are similar to yours. Pre qualify a contractor or two, eliminate the ones with the "reputations", get an estimate and a feel over the phone, go meet the guy that you chose at his shop, check him out,

THEN get the quote, and pay for it. Do the legwork. All will work out well.

Noel

Earthfire

estimate

Did the Cornbinder dealer come to your truck when you broke down on the road for $25.00 or $30.00 dollars? Not by a long shot!