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David Sutton_3
Member Posts: 160
i just read what you posted, you are soo right, and like you have learned a great deal from this site but have also read some very childish post, but those are few, the level of professionals here is stagering,
0
Comments
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I just finished reading the post
Asking if it was time for a new boiler and we need to stop and think alittle bit here.
Guys, it is WAY to easy to sit at a keyboard and dash off a couple of quick lines and get a short feeling of superiority. Please try and remember that thousands of people read this website that we are not aware of, they do not post, they lurk. Your quick, short tempered remarks, are not just read by a few trademens , but by thousands of homeowners. who do not get the joke.
Many times it may appear that this is a club, or just an extention of the counter at the supply house, but it is not.
I know its tough. We deal with people all day long. Difficult customers, arrogant people who call for our help and then belittle us by telling US how we will do the job. But thats not every job is it ? If it is, take a look in the mirror it might not be all thier fault.
But when some comes to this site and ask's for help and has what appears to be another job where a customer is being taken advantage of and dos'nt know it, take a deep breath. Try not to slam them with all the frustration you've built up during the day ( or night, and thats another problem ).
That faceless monitor in front of you has a few thousand people at the other end of it. And they form an opinion of you by what you write.
I have not only elevated my heating work by the site, but have learned that my business is not only about making money, but about caring also. Dan Holohan and others on this site have reminded me about caring and helping others less fortunate.
Try and remember this, when someone ask's what appears to you as a stupid question.
There are No stupid questions, just Stupid answers.
Scott Milne
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Scott,well said!0 -
Well put, as always....
> Asking if it was time for a new boiler and we
> need to stop and think alittle bit here.
> Guys, it is WAY to easy to sit at a keyboard and
> dash off a couple of quick lines and get a short
> feeling of superiority. Please try and remember
> that thousands of people read this website that
> we are not aware of, they do not post, they lurk.
> Your quick, short tempered remarks, are not just
> read by a few trademens , but by thousands of
> homeowners. who do not get the joke.
>
> Many
> times it may appear that this is a club, or just
> an extention of the counter at the supply house,
> but it is not.
>
> I know its tough. We deal
> with people all day long. Difficult customers,
> arrogant people who call for our help and then
> belittle us by telling US how we will do the job.
> But thats not every job is it ? If it is, take a
> look in the mirror it might not be all thier
> fault.
>
> But when some comes to this site and
> ask's for help and has what appears to be another
> job where a customer is being taken advantage of
> and dos'nt know it, take a deep breath. Try not
> to slam them with all the frustration you've
> built up during the day ( or night, and thats
> another problem ).
>
> That faceless monitor in
> front of you has a few thousand people at the
> other end of it. And they form an opinion of you
> by what you write.
>
> I have not only elevated
> my heating work by the site, but have learned
> that my business is not only about making money,
> but about caring also. Dan Holohan and others on
> this site have reminded me about caring and
> helping others less fortunate.
>
> Try and
> remember this, when someone ask's what appears to
> you as a stupid question.
>
> There are No stupid
> questions, just Stupid answers.
>
> Scott Milne
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 237&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,
> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A
> Contractor"_/A_
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Well put, as always....
by both a professional and a gentlemen!
Boilerpro0 -
Well said Scott
and to the several thousand homeowners, I'll try to be a little more sensitive. I think I sometimes use this forum as a surrogate bar where I come to talk and listen in on a subject that interests me greatly. "you want to go, where everybody knows your name, and their always glad you came" Dan H., gracious host is Sam Malone and I'm probably Cliff Clavin. (Did you know that drinking beer makes you smarter?)
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Good speakin, Scott
I was thinking along those lines, too.
Some are a little over the top on thier own way of thinking, which doesn't make for good debate.
It not only turns off new viewers, it drives a lot of the regulars away for a while, too.
Pretty soon, only the loud mouths will answer, and the whole thing will spin down the waste and overflow.
Good on yer fer speakin up.
What the heck does hunting have to do with it?
Noel0 -
Whatsa' matter Noel
don't like hunting?
Just a friendly exchange with a HOMEOWNER that came here for help.
Good post Scott.
Mark H
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Thanks Scott
It's a tough to give advice using this medium when we don't know all the facts,haven't seen the job and only get one side of the story.
Yet we get asked for advice on a regular basisis. The best we can do is give an opinion, keep it polite, and encourage consumers to utilize the services of a professional contractor.
This is a great trade with a good future ahead of it. The more professional we present ourselves the more our business will grow.0 -
Thank-you from a homeowner for
doing such a good job of putting it into words Scott. When I first posted here I was very hopeful that I would get the help I needed and expand my knowledge. While I did get some very helpful advice the first couple of posts I also got slammed pretty bad.
Fortunately I am fairly thick skinned and I also have a lot of experience dealing with subs (And a LOT of experience dealing with online personalities as I have been dealing with chat rooms (Moderating) since the early days of BBS's.) so I persevered and was able to get my questions answered. (Thanks Mark!!!)
Unfortunately there are probably hundreds of homeowners lurking that will never post here due to the fear that they will get lambasted by a "pro" for asking, what to them anyway, is a simple question.
I am all for having professionals in to do the work needed if called for. Example, I am having a journeyman plumber come in next week to re-do all the drain lines in my house. Now I have done a lot of plumbing over the years but I feel this is a job that needs a pro to do it.
I am also going to hire a qualified heating company when I have my boiler replaced. Now that I have spent some time here at the wall I feel much, much more qualified to judge whether or not the contractor I finally hire is competent to do the work.
Thanks again, I look forward to future chances to learn here at the Wall.
Rob0 -
Common sense
Good post Scott.
Treat your customers with respect and Education. Constructive criticism is one way we teach and learn. The key word here is Constructive.These people that we deal with every day Pay our bills.Without them we would all be eating tree bark......Well the ones that don't bow hunt...
steve.
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Thank you Rob ...
sometimes we get a holyer than thu attitude, bottom line is we are here to sereve the custermer, i am a firm beliver in educating the custermer, this will improve the way we communicate, and help to get the job done more efficently .and the more the custermer dose know the more honest the trade will become. just my thoughts...David0 -
Good job Scott.........
and well said! Funny how most of the time that the ones that are nasty are seldom heard here and seem to only come out for neg comments and never ofter any real help.John@Reliable0 -
Its a team effort
I am fairly new here posted a few things and a few jokes to "lighten the load". My work is quite different with most here,I work in variuos aspects of this pipe trade. For months I might do heating,then not touch it for a year or so because I am doing air lines or product lines. My work is more industrial and big commerical. I do enjoy reading the posts here and can get a sense of team players here,but have also noticed some cheap shots too. There is a code of conduct in all walks of life but if one does not know these codes;there's a simple solution that governs all: If you have nothing nice to say,be quiet !0 -
Boy o boy what did i miss????
who did I insult this time????? Mad Dog
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Well-put Scotty.................but thats what
makes this place theeeee spot...a little tension and friction is good....it separates out the truth from the bull. Mad Dog
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Ditto
to Boilerpro's remarks, Scott.0 -
H.O. gets free advice and then.....
Well here you have a H.O. getting free advice, when he doesnt like what he hears(2500) for a boiler replacement, he starts complaining about the way he was attacked! I dont post often but I hang here quite a bit. They come for free advice here and then slam us contractors for being rude. What kind of response would you get if you walked into their office looking for free advice on a certain problem that they work with? Free advice is what it is, the people that responded didnt seem too rude. To me anyway. Don0 -
Too many assumptions going on...
Don,
Please go reread that thread. The "H.O." definitely sounded like he was joking about all the exclaimation marks (the closest thing to a complaint that *he* posted) and provided as much information as the "Pros" were requesting. It was actually a few others (pros and another tradeperson) who commented that perhaps it sounded like some people were coming down a little too hard on him.
Also, he never said that the $2500 was high. What he did say was the $1500 - 1800 estimate to fix the old Bryant that was leaking seemed expensive. He also stated that he wasn't an expert in this area. Since his "trusted" plumber had offered to put a new one in for $2500, he came here seeking advice as to whether he should repair or replace.
While that replacement offer may seem low and basically infer that very little piping would be changed/upgraded, this guy has a leaking boiler, it is winter, a repair would take 40 days and his plumber that he has some history with was offering to fix it at a good price. This isn't about designing a new hydronic system, he basically needs to fix one part of his system.
That boiler needs to be replaced and soon, if the H.O. can see some of the boiler installs that his plumber has done and get a good heat loss calculation done so he can get a properly sized boiler he should be okay. Better than the currently oversized leaking boiler he has now. The key thing here is sizing and that W-M will stand behind their boiler so it is key to check the plumber's heating background.
The home owner pro friction will definitely exist outside of this forum where the physical work and the actual dollars meet up. Everyone has different values and ideas of what constitutes value to them so this is inevitable. But here, we have a forum for exchanging ideas and advice. Nobody is obligated to provide advice and nobody should be chastised for requesting advice.0 -
I'm
with the Dog. A couple of responses were a little rough, but Steve hung in there. Good man.
I really think we should let Dan do the preaching.
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Another perspective
I'm a heating professional who works for one of those companies who refuses to educate the employees beyond "Oil Burner 101" when they're hired, and even when a guy comes in after hearing a new theory or aproach he's often "slapped down" for his trouble. I whole-heartedly support your call for more education, but since I'm not the guy writing the checks, I have to struggle through and learn from you guys.
So don't dog us "uneducated" guys so hard, usually we don't have a choice and STILL have to get up in the middle of the night.
dan0 -
Respect
It's a funny thing,Respect that is.I was once told you get what you give. If you respect people and their opinions they in turn will respect yours!
It takes to much energy to be nasty.
Jeff0 -
While your learnin'...
Check this site out also.....
if you haven't found it already.
http://oiltechtalk.com/0 -
Bad Dog!
Sometimes "the truth" is only our professional opinion.
Dog, I hope this doesn't rub you the wrong way. The last thing I want to do is scold The Dog. However, a recent homeowner who posted on The Wall looking for help with a botched radiant job was told that they should consider "chopping up the slab and starting from scratch." This statement was profoundly disturbing to the homeowner regardless of how delicately it was put.
They had just paid out thousands of dollars for a system that was supposedly designed by a radiant heating manufacturer. They followed his instruction, did the best they knew how only to end up with a system that simply would not work in it's current condition. To make a long story short, some people lost their jobs as a result of what had transpired on this job. The installer jumped town to Denver. (ME , be on ALERT!) They now understand this was nobodies fault but their own for trusting all the wrong people and found themselves in desperate need of a solution to their difficult situation.
I was hired to make the system work as efficiently as possible given the grim circumstances. There was no way they were going to jackhammer up the entire floor of the home they were now living in. I believe we solved their problem to the best of our ability. Only time will tell if the homeowner will be satisfied or not.
I sincerely believe they will be comfortable in their home this winter with my new system in place and running at between 94-98% efficiency thanks to MPI's MZ wall hung condensing boiler technology. unfortunately, the gas bills may reflect the harsh reality that they are heating our Mother Earth along with their floors.
I agree with you that a little "tension and friction" is good when it's between us Wallies. I've been known to step over that line on more than one occasion here. When a homeowner becomes the target of this, I don't think it's such a good idea. JMHO.
Gary
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Thanks for
putting it into perspective.
>
> I agree with you that a little "tension and friction" is good
> when it's between us Wallies. I've been known to
> step over that line on more than one occasion
> here. When a homeowner becomes the target of
> this, I don't think it's such a good idea. JMHO.
A lot of us homeowners are not going to understand the difference between friction and criticism.
Rob0 -
Ask yourself these three questions
Is it the truth?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?
If you can not answer a sincere yes to all, leave it unsaid. This idea works most of the time, when I remember to count to ten. It certainly has kept me out of trouble with my lady who taught me this idea in the first place.0 -
image
Also remember most of us have never seen one another and probaly never will. The image I have of each poster, Pro or Home owner is derived from how they post. Ive read postings that made me dislike the person immediatly ( right or wronge) and Ive read stuff that makes me wish I could shake the persons hand. The image I have of that person is derived from the attitude and manners they post with. You can spot kindness,and politness as well as arrogance and rudeness sometimes directly or indirectly in comments. I am a manufacturing engineer and a home owner that doesnt know crap about boilers other than what you have taught me. Its funny how your minds eye makes a picture of the people that help you as friendly warm people that you would like if you met and the others well .... you know
dan0 -
One other suggestion
these lurking homeowners will probably never post on this site, because the answers given them can tend to be insanely techincal for them.
When I post answers I like to reply to them in a fashion that is helpful and understandable. Posting the formula for cfm + btu+ delta T to the third power to answer a question about which speed the blower in an oil furnace should be set at is a little much.
That formula was made up and should not be used as it could cause a major shift in the ozone layer, which would cause global warming.
P.S. how can I add spell check to this posting?0 -
Spell checking
Either write it somewhere else, spell check copy and paste or keep a little speller/divider book on top of the monitor.
I do the latter, but don't always get my spelling right. Typing too fast, too lazy to look it up, think I have it right, etc.0
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