Estimate Fees

heatboy

but I must be paid for any and all design work. It is always in the proposal, it's just I may or may not request those costs upfront. I give everyone who is interested in talking about their project a 60 to 90 minute visit. The potential clients comes into the office with plans and we discuss their wants and needs. At the end of the initial meeting we both have a pretty good feel for the project and I can give them some estimated investment numbers. At that point we can go on to the next phase (design) or go our seperate ways.

hb

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DaveGateway

I realize this subject was beaten to death in August (thread reference below) but I just want to vent some of my own frustrations.

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=49655&_#Message49655

As a HO who is building an addition for his growing family and has been doing almost all of the work on his own I too consider my time valuable.
I certainly understand the concept of having to pay for someone to come to my home, discuss my situation and prepare an estimate. I'll admit I'm not crazy about it. I worked as an estimator in a large CM firm in NYC for 4 years. The bids and estimates for the $50M to $250M projects we worked on cost our firm anywhere from $30k to $200k depending on how many addendums, etc would come out.
Not once did we see a check when we lost the bid.

Clearly the market today will bear contractors requesting consultation fees, but what bothers me is that many of the contractors I've called will not even discuss the job over the phone with me first, they have someone answering the phone with what seem to be clear instructions to tell the caller that they can't even discuss the job without visiting my home, and charging me anywhere from $40 to $130.

So after I've agreed to an appointment date and time, what happens when the guy doesn't show up? I leave work early, race home to meet the guy and he doesn't show. Not only that, his office doesn't call. Am I justified to send him a bill for my time?
To add to my frustration when I call the next day to find out what happend, first they deny that I even had an appointment, then someone else tells me that there was an appointment scheduled, but they called to find out if I was home and there was no answer. But for some ridiculous reason there also was no message on my voicemail! So they offer to come out the very same day, but the $79 charge still applies take it or leave it. And the manager that's telling the girl that there won't be an exception won't even take a minute to talk to me about what I need done.

What happened to, "I'm sorry for the screw up," or "we can come out today, no charge" or just taking a second to talk to a potential customer?

Maybe its me.
The other guy coming yesterday was not going to charge for the visit, but he didn't show either, and I can't get a hold of him on the phone.

I guess I'm just venting but I am annoyed and frustrated.
These are by no means the first contractors I've called and gotten nothing but my own time wasted. Too often, they never call back in the first place.

Jeff Lawrence_12

It just so happens

I sit here waiting on a gutter contractor to come out to my house. We had an appointment about a week ago and he never showed or called. I called him back and we set up an another appointment for 10 AM. About 9:30, he called to let me know he was on the way. I called him about 11:25 to see where he was and he said he'd be here in 20 minutes.

I'm tired of waiting. He just lost my business and I'm planning on talking to the guy that refered him to me.

I try to make appointments and keep them. If I can't make them, I try to call. I have been on both sides of the table.

J.

John Ruhnke1

I sometimes charge for estimates.......

I have a problem. My prices are higher than most of my competition. My service and quality of workmenship is far better though. WE would never treat anyone like in Tommy G's e-mail. Past clients and referrals have no prolem paying more. They know from the past it is worth it. I close 90% of the time with referals and past clients.

The problem comes from the yellow pages. I find myself running all over town giving prices just to find out I am the highest. I already know that. So I prequalify yellow page clients. I tell them about our great service and better workmenship. I explain that it takes us longer to complete a job, quality takes time. I explain that all of our training costs us plenty. I make sure they understand all of this ahead of time. Then I tell them I want $46.00 just to look at the job. I will talk to them personally though, on the phone and ballpark prices for them for free before I come out. I will do everything possible to avoid runnning out for nothing. Good trades people are very busy and there is a huge shortage. I get asked to do way more estimates then I could handle. I can't make it out to see everyone even if I wanted to. So I try and cut down the numbers.

JR

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kevin_5

You guys are right.

As a contractor, I would feel obligated to come out for nothing if I treated you this way. The post below shows the contractor's side of things. Wouldn't a little courtesy go a long way in this world? Surely a lot further than political correctness. Kevin

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Unknown

I'd like to ask for homeowners input on this one. I'm not too many years out of the field, that I forget the pressures of the seasons.

As a small shop, the seasonal swings were huge, in volume of work. We tried to take care of our regular customers year round, any time they called. We had no service contracts, but it was a small town, and everybody knew who was a customer. Our shop did gas, oil, wood, and electric. We did steam, water, and air, hot and cold. Our plumbers did service, also. We might be doing a well pump in the morning and an air conditioner in the afternoon on a resturaunt roof.

Our customers knew all of us, and when they called, they usually were informed about how long it would be before one of us would be there.

In the spring and summer, there were a few short days, due to workload. If we needed the hours, we would call for an annual service from our list. We would like to have the list finished by Labor Day. This kept us paying the bills.

It seems that the most common time of the year to hear about difficulty getting a contractor is the time of the year that those loyal and dedicated customers need service the most. A company that can keep 5 guys busy through the summer could keep 10 guys busy in the fall. There just aren't ten guys to hire for these three months, that are willing to be laid off in February.

That means long days and nights. Estimates are replaced with running and putting out fires (not literally). We wouldn't think of letting one of our customers go without service. We managed.

I agree that a customer's time is as valuable as ours. There is no excuse for not keeping an appointment without a call and a good reason. Service means just that, service.

Now for the question. How can a company politely decline new customers in the fall, because there is NO WAY I can get everything on my plate finished as it is, and then expect to take them on in the spring, when the time is there to service everything they need? They will be LONG GONE by then. How can I expect the customers that have already called for service that I have taken care of for years to wait while I measure a house for a new heating system that I know I won't get to build for lack of time and help?

What do I tell the customer that buys discount oil from a trucker that has no service dept. and rock bottom oil prices, when he wants an Annual tune-up after 5 years? (hint: annual means every year). That customer is going to have more than usual wear and breakdowns, won't be happy with the time it takes to remove 5 years of soot and scale, and will never have a service call in the daytime. What do I tell him?

In these times, customers move away or pass on, but there is someone else living in that house. Somehow, they find us and get on the schedule. The number of customers stays about the same, as does the help.

I just can't seem to figure out how to make the new people with no history with us comfortable. Usually, I can pick out the customer that wants us to care for their house from the ones that are shopping price.

Customers should shop for contractors. They should become familiar with who they want in their house working. The best relationships are the ones that last.

I believe that the days of recession, with two contractors for every job bidding each other short, are over for a while. I think that a contractor is a relationship, now, more so than a commodity. When servicemen became in short supply, discount oil companies popped up all over. Some contractors began to only service what they installed. Some only service their own contract customers. Oil companies only service their own delivery customers.

Service is becoming the fringe benefit of doing business with certain companies.

If I had put in my own boiler and was buying discount oil, and my heat went out in the night during cold weather, I'd be pretty concerned after making a few phone calls. I'd feel pretty alone, too.

As customers, how do you feel that we can do a better job getting to your needs this time of year? I'm stumped...

Noel

PS: I got away from contracting to do technical service work with Slant/Fin. I no longer take night calls.

heretic

Tough situation

I feel your pain. It's a seller's market. Particularly for heating contractors in the fall.

I jumped in on the other thread, but I feel that the best solution for both sides is to invest a little more time upfront on the phone to make sure you are likely to be able to come to a business arrangement. Saves a lot of time and trouble for both parties. A little communication goes a long way.

I would doubt many contractors really want to be in the estimate business, fee or no fee.

DaveGateway

Personally, I would completely respect a contractor that honestly told me he was too busy unless I could wait. That doesn't mean that I would wait, but depending on the situation, I might.

A little upfront honesty and communication goes a long way.

If you're too busy, well then you probably are good and may be worth waiting for. But if you happen to be too busy, and a reputable competitor may not be totally booked, why not recommend him? Hopefully he'll send some business back your way some other time. I've found developing relationships with the competition helps in life.

Just an idea.

Jared M. Dean

Estimating

It is always a challenge to turn this win/lose situation into a win/win. And it is true that it is a sellers market and us sellers tend to get fat and happy. We are booked for te next 2 months and are very up front about that with every customer. Fact is - most consumers will respect that honesty - and even if they bail on you due to your honesty this time - wait until they need something else and don't want the "company b" back in their house due to whatever roblems they may have had. They will remember your integrity. We don't and never have charged for estimating. We depend on classifying our leads. It could be said though that charging gives your estimate some kind of value though. As far as company representatives not showing up - we hear this all the time. It doesn't make much sense and I can't explain the state of mind but all it can do for us that do care is make us look that much better. Let Rusty Bucket work his magic!

Jared

Climate Creator

Hmmm

I see it this way...

Develop and keep relationships with other contractors that are not necessarily competitors, but like minded allies. I am friendly with several such people and companies, so when a job comes in more suited for one of them...if I am busy doing jobs of my choosing, I pass it on to them...and vise versa. I do not leave a caller wanting because I have given them a reputable lead worthy of the one they got to get to me. I do not or have not advertised other than word of mouth and the exchanging of business cards, so if I am too busy I want to make sure they get someone deserving of their time and not "cold Calling" from the YP!

Also I have not had to charge for estimates because I usually suggest a ball park and explain to the customer that it is fairest to both of us to pay for what you get.
We keep track of materials and time, and let the customer know if we get near the "cap" and it takes the stress out all around, because they are not overpaying, and I am not undercutting to stay under bid (I hate that!) It may help that most of my business is by refferal so people know what they are getting, but I think it's just right! I don't overcharge worrying about things that may be a problem and then profiting when they don't. I always do heat losses and inform the client of what is needed, but I never liked doing someone elses loads for them, so I don't give it to them so they can use it to shop. Most designers landscape or otherwise charge people to keep the presentation paperwork after the pitch has been made, and if no one signs the contract it all goes home with them..Think about all the things you have bought yourselves..if you like what you heard when you went shopping for it you usually bought it if the price seemed fair. But if something is'nt quite right about the salesperson or the pitch, you walk and look some more, same thing for the client if they don't want it right then after you excited them about your work, they usually are'nt going to want it, either they are a quality shopper or a quantity shopper, one ALWAYS matters more than the other.

As far as service I offer 24 hour service to clients whom I have already visited during normal working hours, or refferals from other clients. This way my clients are not missing out, I am not out trying to get more when I already have some. I explain to people that this is how it is and they are glad to wait for me, because they know what kind of service they will get down the road. Also I give each new customer a brochure with my service agreements and non-service agreement pricing so there is no mistake about the charges when the 5-year soot factories that ring the phone at 3 am. go down and out!

Also calling people when you are late or can't make it has nothing to do with heating, it is only common sense, and if you make a mistake, you need to let the client know you are aware of it and SHOW them you are sorry (discounts, freebies, etc.)

Sorry for my long windedness but I just felt the need, in short I guess, yes we are in business but the is NO business without people, so stop worrying about flat rate and worry more about fair rate. Don't underbid, educate, and don't just be a technician be a person. This includes doing a few freebies or volunteer jobs (Or making each call an individual decision not to be put into a flowchart designed by someone else to tell you who needs to pay and how much)it will keep you grounded, centered and feeling good, you might be surprised at how much you get back.

-Rich-

Tony_8

well put