Create two zones or not?

Joe_13

I feel for you. I couldn't imagine my family increasing by 150% in one day. Best wishes to you and your wife (more for your wife). What about the W-M Ultra? Outdoor reset just cuts off the burner before the boiler reaches its max limit. With the Ultra, you get outdoor reset included and the burner modulates the firing rate. Plus it has fresh air intake and exhausts with PVC pipe. The CG 6 is rated at 83% AFUE, the Ultra hits 92%. A lot more money then the CG but look where gas prices are going. The Ultra was made for an indirect. You'd probably only need an 80 gal since the recovery is better on indirects and there's no flue, little stand-by loss. 100Gal gas HWH are not cheap and the eff. is only 70% at best. 100Gal of HW will still sit around part of the day loosing heat. Big waste.

F Reynolds

Create two zones or not?

My gravity fed system is being replaced. Actually I'm getting a new boiler and I am interested in your opinion. I have a one zone system for the house. Each of the main feed lines feed lines/ return lines are located around the side of the basement and very accessible. Would it be more efficient to create a two zone system (two feed lines and two return lines around the basement) than to just have the one. I NEED EFFICIENCY WITH THIS OLD HOUSE. MY GAS BILLS ARE TOO HIGH. Thanks, F Reynolds

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not all, but most gravity systems have two pairs of mains. Unfortunately though they usually don't feed logical "zones".

Thermostatic radiator valves are VERY good with iron radiators--both for comfort and efficiency. Each room (or radiator) becomes its own independent zone without wiring and very little in the way of change to the piping around the boiler.

They're a bit expensive, but since valve geometry hasn't changed in all these years, they aren't too difficult to install. Since you're converting to forced flow, now would be a very good time to install them.

F Reynolds

Create two zones or not?

Ugh, I've been all over this basement looking at the lines. Unfortunately there is only one feed trunk and one return trunk. The fortunate thing is all the lines (going upstairs to the second floor, or all the way up to the bedrooms) seem to come directly off the two trunks, which leads me to believe it would not be difficult to convert to a two zone system. Concerning the thermostats you mentioned, my iron radiators are low profile, baseboard types, made by Weil-McLain and not the steam or large radiators. I don't know if the Thermostatic radiator valves would work, since none of my radiator pipes are exposed in the rooms, there are only bleed valves on each end of the baseboard radiators. Do you still think they will work? Should I still consider separate zones? I really need efficiency. Also, I appreciate the quick response to the questions posted. HELP!

Joe_13

Go for it

If you are sure about the supply and return lines going to the second floor then I don't see why not, especialy if you have overheating of one floor to heat the other. Since the boiler is comming out, look into outdoor reset and a modulating gas boiler. No need to fire up all those BTU's to feed one zone.

F Reynolds

One more thing

I didn't really understand what you meant about "overheating of one floor to heat the other"? I actually have the secondary lines from the supply and return trunks going to the first (kitchen, dining, family and bathroom) and also another set going to the second floor. But they all come off the main supply and return line located around the basement.

What is a modulating gas boiler? I have plans for the outside reset, but I haven't heard about a modulating gas boiler. I'm actually looking at the Wwil-McLain GCs-6 (83.4 AFUE). What do you think???

Joe_13

multi-floor needs zoning

I meant that many mult-floor homes with only one zone usually wind up overheating the upstairs floor to have the living area at a confortable level, that's wasting energy.
Are you using gas, take a look at the WH Ultra, or NY Thermal Trinity, or Monitor Products MZ, or Viesmann Vitoden. Pricey but they have variable output burners, You might need 150K BTU's on a cold day but durring spring and fall and only a call from one zone might only need 50K of output. Keeps the boiler from short cycling. If you have an indirect HW tank with the boilers electronic controls, the boiler will fire full trottle for a quicker hot water recovery.

F Reynolds

Create two zones or not?

Thanks Joe. I was afraid for a moment that I wasn't explaining myself properly. Yes sir, I understand what you mean. Could a variable output burner also be found in a Weil-McLain boiler? A contractor I received an estimate from talked about a reset control that adjusts the temperature of water going to the radiators to adjust to the temperature needed to offset the heat lost as any given moment. Similar to what you said about needing 150K BTUs on one day, and 50K on the next day. That was with a W-M Gold CGs 6. Also, I have decided against the indirect HW tank. I was too concerned it would tie me into the system too much and not allow me to get a larger tank when my triplets (two boys, one girl age 23 months) get to be 14 years old and need two showers a day each when they discover the opposite sex. With all that laundry and need (ha, need) for eight showers a day I was worried it would not be worth my while to limit myself to an integrated HW system without the ability to buy a big 100 gal tank. People I talked with are on the fence when it comes to indirect HW. There doesn’t seem to be a big push either way. I'm sure learning a lot about boilers. This is allowing me to make an informed decision and thus assisting my HVAC professional to make me a totally satisfied customer. F Reynolds

[Deleted User]

To zone, or not to zone

As a contractor this question comes up often. You could add a second set of pipes and create a second zone but sometimes it is not cost effective. Busting into old iron piping gets expensive.Please consider thermostatic radiator valves. These valves sense room temp and adjust accordingly. Danfos makes them as does others. If you invest in these valves everyroom becomes a zone and these valves are modulating. In other words they creep open and close based on room temp. You will love them.

Cliff Brady

Go for a condensing boiler and and indirect

Our 40 gallon indirect supplies a ton of 120 degree water heated with 180 degree water by a Munchkin/Pinnacle 140 for four family of five ages 8 and up. Look closely at the First Hour and Contious ratings of some 40 gallon indirects and you will see they are so much more than a conventional water heater. I can take a long shower here and by the time I get out and go to the basement it is already recovered. All you will get out of a larger indirect will be a few less cycle times for your boiler to fire and a bigger more expensive tank taking up room in your basement.

Look at your home's heat loss and see if it matches up well with output any of the fine condensing boilers on the market like the Munchkin/Peerless (50, 80, 140 and 199 BTU/Hr) or Weil Mclain (80, 105, 155, 230 and 310) or Veismann or Monitor.

Your upfront costs may be a little more but your gas savings will add up quickly.

F Reynolds

Create two zones or not?

Ok, here are the results on my questions from my HVAC pro:

1. Your hotwater heater is relatively new, do not replace it until you need to do so. It would be a waste to remove a good heater. How much is it actually costing you to operate anyway, $250 a year. (I think this was very sound advice)

2. Yes, I could split you system into two zones. However, splitting a heating system into two zones is primarily done for comfort and not for efficiency, however you would see a monitory benefit. I don't believe it would be cost effective. (Again, I think this was very sound advice)

3. Yes, A W-M Ultra would be most efficient, however I personally would like to wait to see how it does in the market overall. It really has not been out that long. I think you need at least an 87% AFUE, but will install an Ultra if you would like me to. (Once again, very sound advice.)

Thanks your all your assistance on the The Wall. It helped me greatly to make a more informed decision. I think my HVAC professional is a Pro! Thanks for your help.

GaryDidier

Zones and indirect

Go for the two zones and if you dont have a large spa-tub a 40 gallon indirect will give you all the hot water you will ever need.
Thanx, Gary from Granville