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Replacing Baseboard with Electric Baseboard or Gas Furnace

Mark Hunt
Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
It sounds to me like Todd inherited a system that was installed by folks that did not understand expansion.

They probably drilled 7/8" or 1" holes for the 3/4" tubing.

3/4" tubing has a 7/8" outer diameter and when the pipe heats up it grows in length. Even 1" holes can be too tight especially if they do not line up perfectly.

The constant circulation with outdoor reset would be an option, but without being able to see all of the piping no-one could ever guarantee a noiseless system.

A small amount of dish soap applied to the pipes at the holes will quiet them, but you may have to repeat this from time to time. That will only work with exposed pipes. Anything above a ceiling or behind a wall would still make noise.

The only other option is exposing the piping and correcting the problem at the source. That would be very expensive as well.

Mark H

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Comments

  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    Replacing Hot Water Baseboard with elec baseboard or Gas Furnace

    Since we have spent nearly $1000 already and heard no improvement at all and as Are ticking baseboards 24X7 with intermittent banging from the pipes in the wall (every 90 seconds constantly), it is most probable we will convert to either ELECTRIC BASEBOARD OR A GAS FURNACE IN THE ATTIC.
  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    Sorry to

    hear that. One thing to understand, electric baseboard will make a ticking noise also. We have it here at the church and you can hear it when it first warms up and when it cools down.

    Hot air will never be as comfortable as radiant either. Good luck in whatever direction you take.

    Rob
  • Joe_13
    Joe_13 Member Posts: 201
    Good Luck

    It sounds more like you're trying to flame this board.
    What did you spend a grand on? Plumbers comming over and staring at your BB? Isn't it stupid to spend at least 10K to remove a great heating system and put in an expensive electric system? Do you have that much power in your home?
    Attic furnace? You'll be back complaining about the blower noise at night over your bedroom, plus the alergies, dry throats, bloody noses, dust. Use the find a contractor on this site for a REAL hydronic expert, not the Roto-Rooter guy. Work the problem logicaly, or maybe just move to FLA. There are millions of hydronic heat systems out there and we're all sleeping at night.
  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28


    It sounds more like you're trying to flame this board. (NOT AT ALL, I AM JUST FRUSTRATED WITH MY NOISY SYSTEM. I RESPECT PROFESSIONALS WHO SEEK TO DO THE JOB RIGHT. I HAVE BEEN MIFFED BY PEOPLE COMING OVER SUGGESTING THEY WILL FIX THE PROBLEM COMPLETELY BY PUTTING FOAM OVER EVERYTHING. What did you spend a grand on? Plumbers comming over and staring at your BB? Isn't it stupid to spend at least 10K to remove a great heating system and put in an expensive electric system? I AM NOT REMOVING ANYTHING. OF COURSE I AM LEAVING THE EXISTING SYSTEM INTACT. I AM PUTTING IN ELECTRIC BB NEXT WEEK ON THE OPPOSITE WALL. I WILL ONLY USE THE ELECTRIC BB AT NIGHT FROM 9pm-7am. THE REST OF THE TIME THE HOT WATER BB WILL BE ON> LAST WINTER WE SLEPT WITH NO HEAT and WE CANNOT DO THAT AGAIN THIS YEAR AS MY WIFE IS PREGNANT. Do you have that much power in your home? Attic furnace? You'll be back complaining about the blower noise at night over your bedroom, plus the alergies, dry throats, bloody noses, dust. I WOULD INSTALL A VARIABLE SPEED FURNACE< ELECTRONIC AIR CLEANER BUT FIRST I WILL INSTALL THE ELECTRIC BB. Use the find a contractor on this site for a REAL hydronic expert, not the Roto-Rooter guy. THE PROBLEM IS NONE ARE IN MY AREA. ONE IS 11 MILES AWAY BUT HE IS OVER A MAJOR BRIDGE WITH MAJOR TRAFFIC THAT CONNECTS NYC AND NJ. Work the problem logicaly, or maybe just move to FLA. MOVE TO FLA. NO iT IS NOT HAPPENING. There are millions of hydronic heat systems out there and we're all sleeping at night. WELL THE HOUSE I LIVE IN USED TO BE OWNED BY A PLUMBER SO I DO HAVE DOUBTS>

  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    Hey Todd,

    > It sounds more like you're trying to flame this

    > board. (NOT AT ALL, I AM JUST FRUSTRATED WITH MY

    > NOISY SYSTEM. I RESPECT PROFESSIONALS WHO SEEK TO

    > DO THE JOB RIGHT. I HAVE BEEN MIFFED BY PEOPLE

    > COMING OVER SUGGESTING THEY WILL FIX THE PROBLEM

    > COMPLETELY BY PUTTING FOAM OVER EVERYTHING.

    > What did you spend a grand on? Plumbers comming

    > over and staring at your BB? Isn't it stupid to

    > spend at least 10K to remove a great heating

    > system and put in an expensive electric system?

    > I AM NOT REMOVING ANYTHING. OF COURSE I AM

    > LEAVING THE EXISTING SYSTEM INTACT. I AM PUTTING

    > IN ELECTRIC BB NEXT WEEK ON THE OPPOSITE WALL. I

    > WILL ONLY USE THE ELECTRIC BB AT NIGHT FROM

    > 9pm-7am. THE REST OF THE TIME THE HOT WATER BB

    > WILL BE ON_ LAST WINTER WE SLEPT WITH NO HEAT and

    > WE CANNOT DO THAT AGAIN THIS YEAR AS MY WIFE IS

    > PREGNANT. Do you have that much power in your

    > home? Attic furnace? You'll be back complaining

    > about the blower noise at night over your

    > bedroom, plus the alergies, dry throats, bloody

    > noses, dust. I WOULD INSTALL A VARIABLE SPEED

    > FURNACE_ ELECTRONIC AIR CLEANER BUT FIRST I WILL

    > INSTALL THE ELECTRIC BB. Use the find a

    > contractor on this site for a REAL hydronic

    > expert, not the Roto-Rooter guy. THE PROBLEM IS

    > NONE ARE IN MY AREA. ONE IS 11 MILES AWAY BUT HE

    > IS OVER A MAJOR BRIDGE WITH MAJOR TRAFFIC THAT

    > CONNECTS NYC AND NJ. Work the problem logicaly,

    > or maybe just move to FLA. MOVE TO FLA. NO iT IS

    > NOT HAPPENING. There are millions of hydronic

    > heat systems out there and we're all sleeping at

    > night. WELL THE HOUSE I LIVE IN USED TO BE

    > OWNED BY A PLUMBER SO I DO HAVE DOUBTS_



  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    Hey Todd,

    > It sounds more like you're trying to flame this

    > board. (NOT AT ALL, I AM JUST FRUSTRATED WITH MY

    > NOISY SYSTEM. I RESPECT PROFESSIONALS WHO SEEK TO

    > DO THE JOB RIGHT. I HAVE BEEN MIFFED BY PEOPLE

    > COMING OVER SUGGESTING THEY WILL FIX THE PROBLEM

    > COMPLETELY BY PUTTING FOAM OVER EVERYTHING.

    > What did you spend a grand on? Plumbers comming

    > over and staring at your BB? Isn't it stupid to

    > spend at least 10K to remove a great heating

    > system and put in an expensive electric system?

    > I AM NOT REMOVING ANYTHING. OF COURSE I AM

    > LEAVING THE EXISTING SYSTEM INTACT. I AM PUTTING

    > IN ELECTRIC BB NEXT WEEK ON THE OPPOSITE WALL. I

    > WILL ONLY USE THE ELECTRIC BB AT NIGHT FROM

    > 9pm-7am. THE REST OF THE TIME THE HOT WATER BB

    > WILL BE ON_ LAST WINTER WE SLEPT WITH NO HEAT and

    > WE CANNOT DO THAT AGAIN THIS YEAR AS MY WIFE IS

    > PREGNANT. Do you have that much power in your

    > home? Attic furnace? You'll be back complaining

    > about the blower noise at night over your

    > bedroom, plus the alergies, dry throats, bloody

    > noses, dust. I WOULD INSTALL A VARIABLE SPEED

    > FURNACE_ ELECTRONIC AIR CLEANER BUT FIRST I WILL

    > INSTALL THE ELECTRIC BB. Use the find a

    > contractor on this site for a REAL hydronic

    > expert, not the Roto-Rooter guy. THE PROBLEM IS

    > NONE ARE IN MY AREA. ONE IS 11 MILES AWAY BUT HE

    > IS OVER A MAJOR BRIDGE WITH MAJOR TRAFFIC THAT

    > CONNECTS NYC AND NJ. Work the problem logicaly,

    > or maybe just move to FLA. MOVE TO FLA. NO iT IS

    > NOT HAPPENING. There are millions of hydronic

    > heat systems out there and we're all sleeping at

    > night. WELL THE HOUSE I LIVE IN USED TO BE

    > OWNED BY A PLUMBER SO I DO HAVE DOUBTS_



  • DIY Homeowner
    DIY Homeowner Member Posts: 48
    Noise

    Any pros here ever fixed a noisy baseboard heating system? What causes the noise in the first place? What are some of the things that have worked, and what doesn't work? Please explain some of the jobs you had and how the noise problems were solved. Thank you.
  • Joe_13
    Joe_13 Member Posts: 201
    You said your zip is 07661

    Todd: There's a contractor listed 18 miles away in Maplewood, why not give him a call? But if noise is such a problem then I hope an electric rad in the bedroom helps.
    Any baseboard application will have a small amount of noise, radiant heat is the only ultimate solution. I had excess noise problems in my system and a replacement expansion tank fixed it. Sure when the BB goes from 65 to 180 when the circ kicks in I do hear the ticking as the copper expands, that's physics. I agree that a foam padding job is a joke but don't let a few jack of all trades ruin your opinion of the whole industry. A contractor whos "into" hydronics should mention some of the sugestions brought up. The electric rad can be a good backup solution and at least it's a cheap solution for one room. Good luck!
  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    Hey Todd,

    if you'd quit SHOUTING you might get a little more respect here.

    First off and foremost a plumber is NOT a radiant heating specialist so having plumbers out to look at the system is just a waste of time and money.

    Get someone who really knows hot water systems to look at your setup. I guess I don't understand the problem with the GW bridge, around here we don't worry about traffic that much, but I am sure this company crosses the bridge..

    I can understand the frustration of having a noisy system, mine ended up noisy after I undertook to "upgrade" my current system. I am not a heating specialist either and had far more struggles than it was probably worth.

    But in the end run I seem to have conquered the majority of my problems, mostly with help from the experts here on the wall. I now sleep peacefully at night with the best heat out there..

  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    Mark is right

    my old system that I "upgraded" never made much sound at all until I upgraded it.

    I was pulling my hair out until someone suggested I look at hole size. Turns out the holes were undersized and causing the majority of my problems.

    It seems that when the system was original (One zone) the piping heated up very slowly and thus didn't cause any expansion problems. Once I split it into 4 zones though it became a big problem. I have since located several undersized holes and enlarged them and have reduced the amount of noise to a minimum.

    Again, good luck. I think getting your current system working correctly is the way to go.

    Rob
  • flange
    flange Member Posts: 153


    you mention ticking baseboards in your initial statement. im guessing this happens when your circ pump turns on. this can be easily cured if the system is set up correctly. the banging i believe is as suggested by having incorrectly sized holes penetrating your floor/drywall/whatever and allowing your piping to rub on the side when it expands or contracts.
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    Todd....whats your problem!

    You write a few different notes to this site, complaining of the same thing. I really doubt you have taken seriously the comments of all of us, concerning contractors that could take care of your problem. Have you already install outdoor reset controls? I doubt it. What do you think we all mention this stuff for? Guess what it works!!! You will never know, since you would rather continue complaining about what you spent.

    Tell the truth. What did the $1000 go towards? It can't all be just to hear suggestions. Do you want to fix it or just complain.
    Just because this site is free, don't abuse it.

    Steve
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424


    Franklin, YES systems can be fixed........and if you read all the responces to Todds (3) questions/complaints, in the last 2 days, you will see plenty of things you can do.

    Steve
  • Tony_8
    Tony_8 Member Posts: 608
    only 11 miles ?

    Why don't you let HIM decide if it's too far ? I'm betting he's not gonna walk and carry his tools on his back. This site is called Heating Help, if that's what you want, listen up. Stay calm.
    When my wife was pregnant, we didn't need a heating system, she was like a city steam plant. Had to leave a window open for her all the time. Should've figured out a way to sell it :)
  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    re

    Have you already install outdoor reset controls? I am not even sure what the outdoor reset controls will do. Can they stop the banging and ticking.

    I want to know exactly what the outdoor reset controls do before installing them.

    I did turn the heat on tonight to about 74 and heard the ticking and banging constantly in the bedroom. Then I walked to the boiler and I heard a similiar ticking noise coming from the lower right side of the boiler.

    In addition, I noticed many of the copper pipes in the basement were discolored green
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Todd

    The green discoloration is corrosion froma leak and should be fixed at some point. Is it blue/green ? If so it could be that anti-freeze was installed in your system. Not a bad thing but info for you.

    Out door reset will adjust the temperature of the water going thru your pipes according to the outside air temperature. The colder it gets the hotter the water. You may have the high limit on your boiler adjusted up to high. If the room is 68 and the heat comes on, sending 190/200 degree water thru your pipes they will expand .... Alot. When copper tubing is installed tightly against wood ( too small a hole ) it will knock and tick. By having cooler water going thru the copper the expansion would be less.

    If you want to spend some money to quite your home, why not use it to resize the holes feeding your baseboard. Have the system drained, cut the tubing and re-size the holes. Add insulation to the holes. Connect the baseboard with the proper glides. Pretty simple stuff and a much better investment than having expensive, also noisey, electric heat installed. Lets not get started on the sound, dust and size of ducts thru your house for a hot air system. BUT its your money.

    Lastly Todd, I have been a plumber for 25 years. I take great pride in that. I hold a Master Plumbers license. Plumbing is one of the oldest trades known to man, after masons. When you continually use the term as a slander it degrades me and others on this site. If I where to use a generalization towards your ocupation I'm sure you also would be insulted. If you came here for help and discussion your at the right spot. If you only want to complain and degrade ... there are bars in every town.

    Good Luck

    Scott

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  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    sorry to convey negative feelings

    as someone else said
    "I agree that a foam padding job is a joke but don't let a few jack of all trades ruin your opinion of the whole industry. A contractor whos "into" hydronics should mention some of the sugestions brought up.

    - Of course, I am upset about buying a house from a Plumber and running into this major problem.

    Thank you for the advice
  • Floyd_5
    Floyd_5 Member Posts: 418
    Ashamed to admit this but...

    I have to fess up here... and my wife will tell you that I tend to cut corners with my own house that I would NEVER consider thinking about in the field..... I am wondering if you haven't got some of that going on here.....
    That job that the "plumber" did in his own house didn't earn him a dime and he probably did it in his "spare" time after running around all day taking care of everyone elses problems and then coming home to his wife B*****ing about how "her" work ALWAYS takes a back set to eveyone elses!!!!

    I tink you get the picture.....

    The cobblers children.....
  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28


    "When copper tubing is installed tightly against wood ( too small a hole ) it will knock and tick. By having cooler water going thru the copper the expansion would be less."

    Thank you for the explanation. My concern would still be in the colder times of winter Dec-Feb even if this is properly installed, then I will still have the loud noise.

    Another question, do you suggest I replace the baseboard?
  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    Once the

    system is set up correctly you will hear very little noise from it. Maybe a small amount of ticking as the copper warms up.

    Now that my system is working correctly the noise is very minumal and does not bother me at all. It is definitly quieter than forced air.


  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28


    " Once the system is set up correctly you will hear very little noise from it."

    Are you referring to the Tekmar System.

    Did you have constant banging and ticking in your baseboards prior to setting up tekmar system.
  • Rob T
    Rob T Member Posts: 64
    No Tekmar

    or other reset on my system. (Yet) I was referring to getting your system working correctly. Hooking up an outdoor reset is a good idea but isn't (Shouldn't be anyway) necessary to achieve a quiet system.

    I have a 40yr old hot water system in a 100yr old home and it is very quiet. At least it is now that I found the problem areas and corrected them.

    My system was fine until I upgraded it, then I started having problems with noise. Turns out I had several undersized holes, once I located and enlarged them the system quieted down tremendously.

    The only noise I now get is a very mild ticking noise as the fin tube heats up, that and the pump. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 7 being enough noise to keep me awake I'd say the system is at 3 to 4.

    I really think you need to get a qualified heating pro out there to see what is going on with your system. I'd do this before I invested any money into add-ons like a reset control. This is from one homeowner to another.

    Good Luck

    Rob
  • Joe_13
    Joe_13 Member Posts: 201
    Tekmar

    makes boiler controls for outdoor reset. This will shut the burner down at a lower boiler temp during warmer outdoor temps to save money. Constant circulation will also require injection or mixing valves to lower the water temp in the BB loop to modulate down to room temp so that the BB does not overheat the house since the pump will always be on. The BB temps will rise and fall slower so much less noise will be heard. I also think you have air caught in your system. That leak mentioned earlier could be a place where air is getting back into your hydronic system, also affecting your boiler pressure.
  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    Todd: There's a contractor listed 18 miles away in Maplewood, wh

    I just did. He said I am too far. When asked about the loud banging in the wall, he suggested bleeding the system. This has been done several times in the past and it accomplished nothing.
  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    Burst Pipe

    I did have a pipe last winter inside a wall (coming from the ceiling) just burst causing water to come out and damage ceiling. A plubmer opened the wall and sealed the pipe. He did not know why it occurred. I was wondering if anyone knew why this could occur? He said it was not b/c of the pipes being too cold.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Todd

    I do'nt know why it burst without looking at it.

    There are two types of noise you can here from a copper finned baseboard job.

    One is a rythmic knocking or tapping. It sounds like someone istapping the floor with a rubber mallet. As the heat travels around the house it will go from room to room as the baseborad heats up. This is the holes being to small scenario. The copper is rubbing against the wood and expanding.

    The other sound is a small metallic "tinkling noise". This is the aluminum fins on the baseboardexpanding against the covers and the brackets. This can be cured by having the basebaord installed properly with the glides ( small plastic pieces that the element sits on ).

    The solve the first you may have to open walls and cielings to get to the holes and drain the system to remove piping and redrill the holes larger. Install closed cell pipe insulation and then re-install the copper tubing.

    To solve the first you must take the covers off the basboard and look to see how the element is installed. Does it sit nicley in the brackets ? Can the element slide back and forth easly ? Is it a brand that you can get the glides and install them if they are missing. These answers will tell you if you have to replace all the baseboard.

    I have installed copper finned baseboard with out re-set that is Very Quite. It can be done. I have also installed re-set to quite a poorly installed system. And it worked.

    Good Luck

    Scott

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  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28


    There are small plastic pieces that the element (assuming the end piece at the end of the baseboard is the element) sits on.

    Does it sit nicley in the brackets? It seems fine to me but my eye is not a professional one like youres.

    Can the element slide back and forth easly?
    The end piece seems tightly connected to the floor.

    Is it a brand that you can get the glides and install them if they are missing. (yes, they are Slantfin although a much wider, thicer version than the newer thinner baseboard I have seen)

    These answers will tell you if you have to replace all the
    baseboard. Unfortunately, I still feel that without an honest professional opinion I will not be confident.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226


    Hold on, Todd. The shop listed in Maplewood is Gateway Plumbing and Heating. My company. (I also operate a shop in Manhattan) I've received no such call.



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  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    Todd

    Expansion in copper tubing is a fact of life. it just does it and there's no way to get it to stop.

    However; if you take a piece of copper out of your freezer and put it in the hot summer sun you won't hear it make any noise. This is because it's not rubbing on anything. Sooooooo..... step one is to eliminate the friction points in your system. These would be places where the tube penetrates a wall, floor or ceiling, or where it contacts a support or other part of the building. May be do-able, may not be. Your particular installation will determine what can and can't be done. This would be the first step.
    The second step is to minimize the number and/or frequency of the expansion/contraction cycles. Each time your thermostat calls for heat the baseboard runs up to whatever temp the boiler is at. Probably around 180*. This is a big jump from room temp and can actually make a piece of tubing "grow" a considerable amount. The best way to address this side of the coin is with an outdoor reset control. This control matches the heatloss of your home to the water temp in the system. Properly setup and adjusted your heat will always be "on". The water will circulate through your baseboard nearly continuously thereby reducing the number of expansion cycles and noise.

    My house has a couple varieties of radiant floor, baseboard, and panel radiators in it. None of them make any noise whatsoever. It is silent. My system runs on reset and a constant circ pump. The outdoor air right now is 41* and my boiler is coming on at 116* and going off at 128*. The radiators, baseboard and floor are constantly putting out just what heat is needed to keep the house where we want it. Check your water temp and see where it's at. I'll bet that when it fires it runs all the way to 180*+. Needlessly, I might add. A reset type system will also save you about 10% minimum on your fuel bills from my experience, so it's worth looking into.

    Don't give up on your hydronic system. Done correctly there is no better comfort out there. Done correctly there is no system that makes less noise. The hard drive on my computer makes more noise than my heating system if that gives you any idea what it can/should be like. There is no sound except for the occasional firing of the burner.
  • Paul Mitchell
    Paul Mitchell Member Posts: 266
    Johnny

    Never spoke or posted to you directly but if you ask me this Todd person is out of his mind i think he is here to mess with all of us. did he even respond to you? Sounds like a moaner and whiner...some people will never be satisfied. Electric baseboard for him sounds great then he can bother the electricians and his electric company will love him.

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  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    To John Ny

    Hold on, Todd. The shop listed in Maplewood is Gateway Plumbing and Heating. My company. (I also operate a shop in Manhattan) I've received no such call.

    - I called your Maplewood office Friday afternoon. I sent you a note to your email address.
  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28


    "Sooooooo..... step one is to eliminate the friction points in your system. These would be places where the tube penetrates a wall, floor or ceiling, or where it contacts a support or other part of the building. May be do-able, may not be."

    One person did recommend placing foam around all areas in the baseboard and in all pipes in the basement. Perhaps based on what you are saying above this makes sense. What do you think?
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Todd


    As I said in an earlier post, the trouble is probably in areas that you can't get to as well.

    What you are dealing with is linear expansion of the tubing. If you can get foam between the pipe and the wood, it probably isn't making much noise in that area. If the pipe hangers in the basement have the pipe tight to the joists, you can reduce some of the noise by replacing the hangers with larger ones, i.e., 1" in place of 3/4".

    You still may have issues with tubing in the walls and ceilings. Aside from removing sheetrock to expose them, there isn't much anyone can do.

    Others have mentioned constant circulation with outdoor reset. That would be the option I would give you. If we keep the water in the pipes at a relatively constant temperature and raise it gradually, the expansion rate will drop. To go from 70 degree water to 180 degree water is a huge jump and the pipe grows accordingly. If we modulate that water temperature according to outdoor temperature we accomplish two things.

    One: We eliminate huge temperature swings in water temp.(This will quiet the system)

    Two: Your fuel bills will drop.

    You need to realize that your current dilemma was caused by the person that installed the system, not by the system itself. The system is made up of inanimate objects that MUST obey the laws of physics. The installer was probably only slightly smarter than the copper tubing and thinks that PHYSICS is gym class.

    One of the other posters here said that his company was in your area. Call him.

    You told us the symptoms, we diagnosed it, now let the contractor fix it.

    Mark H

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  • Marc Finn
    Marc Finn Member Posts: 28
    Thanks for your email

    I am really hoping to get one of the people from this board to see what can be done. I have emailed a few people and am hoping they will be able to do the analysis. The last thing I want to do again is open up the phone book and hope. I can be emailed at dodge621@aol. .

    If I offened anyone previously it was clearly not my intent. It was just depressing to me to hear a plumber try to sell me a bunch of foam for $450.
This discussion has been closed.