The MYSTERY... Answer wins a free (used) steam valve!

Marcus Mead_2

I'll get pictures on by tomorrow morning!

The abatement co was me. I did NOT remove any of the hagers, and the pitch is as it was when we purchased the house last spring. Initially, I thought the pitch was backwards, because it starts highest at the boiler and has a slight grade down around the perimeter of the basement.

But I guess it is supposted to do that, because all the condensation then continues to roll down until it hits the end of the pipe, drops down to the return line, and flows back to the boiler.

I'll take lots of pictures tonight!

THANKS!

Marcus

Marcus Mead_2

Boiler is banging, it is a huge mystery...

A few weeks back, we had our new steam boiler installed. The system hammered, VERY LOUD, from the first day. Someone-just drove-a-bulldozer-off a cliff loud. Our heating contractor told me it was because I had abated the asbestos off the pipes, and re-insulating the pipes would fix the problem. This web page also pointed me in this direction, so we lived with the banging while I researched a local source for pipe insulation.

Well, the other morning I was in the basement measuring pipes when the boiler kicked on and the racket started. It sounded to me like the source was the boiler itself, not the pipes, but it was very hard to tell for sure. As I made my way around measuring, I noticed our well pump was running, and that the pressure was very low. It was not increasing up to 35 like normal. Around the same time I noticed that one the stem vents in the basement (the one right before the pipe drops down to the floor to return to the boiler) had water coming out of it!

To make a long story shorter, I finally discovered that the manual fill valve (the by-pass around the auto-fill relay) had actually been left OPEN for I don't know how long. Weeks, it would seem.

I'm not an idiot and was sure I didn't leave it on when I cleaned the boiler water out a couple days after it was installed, but there it was wide open. I had also not noticed the water level gage being flooded, even though I check it every time I go into the basement. But there it was flooded! Why it didn't fill every pipe and flood the whole house with water, I don't know, but I shut it off, and drained all that extra water out of the system. I also thanked God that all that cold water going directly into the boiler that fast for that long didn't crack the thing.

(As a side note, I think I am going to switch the refill from the cold to the hot side of the water heater. Good idea, or not a problem to worry about?)

After draining the system and filling it to the proper level, the banging stopped, and we were very happy. The system would kick on, heat up the place quietly, and shut off without a peep. We had a quiet house! Problem solved! Right??

But this morning, two days later, it started again. Exactly the same as always. The system fires up, and within 6 or 7 minutes we get a series of bangs that literally sounds like a 5 pound sledge is being slammed into the boiler/pipes as hard as you can swing it. Again, it sounds like it is coming form the boiler, but the fill valve is closed!

How is this possible??? It was gone, and now it is back??? Could the boiler have been damaged??? What is happening???

If it helps, we have a one pipe system (one pipe to the radiators.) There are high pipes running the perimeter of the basement ceiling, that drop to a return line running on the floor of the basement along the east wall, back to the boiler.

Thanks in advance,


Confused in Michigan...

Mark Hunt

Dear Confused in Michigan


could you post some pictures of the installation?

The noise you are hearing is water hammer. Slugs of water are being thrown through you system by the steam and slamming into the piping and radiators.

If the abatement company removed any pipe supports, you may have dips or even back pitched pipes now.

A picture would really help us help you!

Mark H

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Dale

cheap ball valves

I have one on a compressed air system that creeps open by itself If I were you I would make sure the gauge glass is at proper level, make sure it both the little valves are open and that the water drops whein the boiler drain is open then completely disconnect the fill water line from the boiler and run the boiler for a few days. That way you eliminate the water source issue, I'm assumming you don't have a domestic hot water coil in your boiler.

ScottMP

Is it possible

that the water hammer actually opened the ball valve ?

The photos hopefully will tell alot. I am iterested to see the header and near boiler piping.

Scott

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scrook_2

the lack of mailns insulation...

would cause more condensate to form in the pipes giving you more water to hammer around and perhaps more variation in the boiler water line perhaps causing overfeeding by the auto feeder if present. The hammer might have opened the ball valve (or you may have gremlins).

Where's the main vent, *at* the elbow *at* the end of the steam main *just* as it turns down to the floor level condensate return (where the hammering water will beat on it, or up a bit on a nipple, or in a tee a bit back from the elbow, or both, where water hammer won't beat it up? Might be time for a new vent, on a nipple in addition to some 1" fiberglass insulation.

Could be other things too...

Post pictures, we love pictures!

Marcus Mead_2

Location of main vent

The main vent is at the end of the run, attatched to the 90 degree elbow that heads down to the floor. It is a new, out of the box, vent, so it should not need to be replaced.

Like an idiot, I left my digital camera on my desk at work! I will take the pictures tonight and post from home. I'll take LOTS!

Thanks,

Marcus

Guy_5

The other thought that comes to mind- Were the wet returns flushed out when the new unit was installed? A combination of the flooding from the past and partially clogged returns could be causing a backup. Are the individual radiator vents open far enough to allow the condensate to flow freely out of the radiators at the end of the cycle? Even radiators that are not "in use" should still have the vents open a small amount. If the main valves are shut, or the air vents are not open enough, steam can sneak in and condense, but water can't drain out. Until it gets high (heavy) enough or a head of steam pressure pushes it out. Then excessive water runs down the mains, colliding with the outbound express we call steam and BANG. The little men with the hammers begin their work. It's usually third shift work too, because it is the worst at night.

Marcus Mead_3

Pictures

Okay, here are the pictures of the boiler(boiler1, boiler2, boiler3, and boiler4):

Followed by two pictures of the end of the high pipes, and drop back to the floor for the return run (the first steam vent was the one that was literally overflowing with hoit water that faithful morning, meaning the entire return system had been flooded.) All the high pipes have a slight downward pitch, untilo they end up ay one of two pipes that drop straight down to the floor:

Three shots of the return to the boiler along the floor(first one also shows second pipe that drops to the floor):

One shot of the high pipes above the boiler:

and finally, a shot of me very confused.

Does this help at all???

Thanks,

Marcus

paul lessard_2

looks like the return is too high

and the equalizer is kinda unorthodox

Unknown

That last pic is a classic

It looks like the contractor did some nice pipework , all straight and level . It is a shame that it is piped wrong . When Steamhead comes on , he can post a picture of a recent install he did using the same boiler you have .

But to condense just a little - the boiler header pipes are connected into a tee the wrong way and the equalizing pipe is not in the most ideal place . Also , the return pipe should drop right down after the Hartford Loop . It looks like it goes across about 2 feet before dropping down - a no no . And one other thing - the main vent that is tapped into the ell - it is not in the best place to vent and is probably too small a tapping to vent that part of the main , I'm guessing it is 1/8 inch ?

I know it sounds like alot of fixin' needs to be done , but trust me , once it's accomplished your banging pipe problems will go away . Good luck Marcus

Lew

The first thing I noticed was the flue. It looks like it is reduced twice, from a 7" to a 5". How is the drafting?

Steamhead

Thanks Ron

your opinion means a lot.

Marcus, here are two shots of a recent installation we did of a boiler similar to yours, though a couple of sections larger. The pipes are all sized "by the book" and installed that way too, with one exception: Columbia doesn't require the "drop header" we used. But it's easier to put together and does a better job of separating steam from water.

The third attachment is the piping diagram that comes with the Columbia CEG and Utica PEG series boilers. If the installer left the manual that came with yours, you'll find the same thing there.

I'm afraid you'll have to get this boiler repiped. I see at the very top of the picture that there are two steam mains in your house. Each of these must have its own connection to the header, as shown in my pics.

Columbia makes a nice boiler. I think you'll like yours a lot better when it has the proper piping.

The "main vents" remind me of my early days working with steam- they're actually radiator vents. From the looks of them, they're too small. Measure the length and diameter of your mains before they drop into the high returns and we'll tell you what you need.

Where are you located? I'm sure one of us is near you......

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bob young

how not to do it

classic example of a system that is not supposed to work. the flue connection verifies the installer ???? had not a clue about the flue. looks kinda scary. leave it as a monument and go hot water

Jim_22

insulation?

Is that polycell insulation on some of that piping? That usually won't stand up to steam. I saw a guy use that on a commercial steam line once. (5lbs.) It "shed" itself off the pipe as soon as the steam came on.
Wasn't pretty!

Mark Hunt

Sorry Marcus


it's piped wrong.

The hartford loop is coming in above the water line. Recipe for water hammer!!!

The equalizer is wrong, and you have steam slamming in to itself on the header.

Get the manufacturers piping diagrams, then call the contractor back.

He needs to repipe it correctly.

Mark H

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Marcus Mead

in Response to all

Thanks to everyone for sharing your invaluable insight. I am humbled and amazed at what you can see from a picture, that I can't see in my basement...

I'll just post one response to everone if that is okay.

1. The contractor and pipe work. The contractor is a good guy, who has done very large steam jobs in the Detroit are in the past. He has worked a lot of extra hours replacing pipes that broke as we tied in the system, without charging me a dime extra (all the other contractors were quite clear that would be an additional charge!) We've been basically trying to tie new boiler to the system as it was, which keeps cost down but obviously can cause problems like the one we are having. I'll run the suggestions by him, and we'll see what can be done.

2. The main vents. I'll see if I can get a bigger vent. Would I have to re-drill and tap the hole? And where would I get a bigger steam vent?

3. The flue. It connects to a power-vent. Never thought of it as being too small, shouldn't a power vent be able to pull out all of that nasty CO?

4. Replace it and go hot water. After spending $6,000 on the brand new steam boiler, and refurbishing a dozen old steam radiators, and having already installed new drywall on the walls that were opened in summer renovations, I don't think we will be going with hot water until I am a Dead Man myself.

5. Our location. Old Mission, Michigan. Near Traverse City, which is about four hours northwes of Detroit or about two hours north of Grand Rapids.

6. The insulation. Yes, that was basically a styrofoam insluation tube that I installed. The old "steam guy" at the plumbing supply store who ordered me two new steam valves reccomended it to me, said it wouldn't melt. I purchased one piece to try it, and although I can't say it actually melts, there is no way that stuff could ever hold up for an extended period of time. Like a week or more... I'm ordering fiberglass today.

7. That last picture. Yeah, and to think my modeling career never took off! Jeez!

8. Supply T between the risers. I notice my instructionmanual says never to put the supply T between the risers. My supply T is between the risers, isn't it?


I'll ask my contractor to take a look at all of the comments. He'll be back out soon to hook up one last radiator. Don't be afraid to leave any parting thoughts about all of this, I can't have too much information at this point.

Oh, and about that steam valve as a prize... Since more than one person had the correct answer, the prize will have to be awared by the first person to visit my house and help out. It is in Old Mission, Michigan, directly across the street from the Old Mission General Store. Lovely area, worth the drive, and we'll even throw in a free cherry pie if you're interested. Thanks, everyone!

Marcus

Bryan_5

Marcus,
As a homeowner myself I will give you 1 piece of advice on this. Listen to what these guys tell you, they are the best of the best. Even if you end up having to pay to get this fixed do it! Better to spend some additional money now then to have to spend the 6K again in a couple of years. Follow the advice from the pros on the Wall and you will have the most comfortable house in the neighborhood.
Bryan

Dale

Some possible good news

Although you didn't say a brand if the power vent is a Field or Tjurnland and is wired in correctly the vent pipe may be sized correctly. Find the instructions with the power venter and read them in comparison to the boiler input in BTU, remember that the power vent needs to be locked into the burner, probably the vent damper needs to open first then start the power vent then when that proves the burner. A little bad news, the way it's piped now the force of heated header expansion is on the side sections of the boiler rather than on a side thrust of a threaded joint, this must be fixed along with all the rest. The steamhead Fig 5 is a minimum, just picture your 2 supply mains after both the boiler supplys from the header.

bigugh_4

One more thought

The water hammer can and does sometimes damage the internal parts of air vents. You mentioned replacing them for size perposes, but you may reconsider even if the size is ok. At least inspection may help after all the other stuff is taken care of!

Glenn Harrison

If that is power vented...

you need to get rid of the flue damper as it will cause a tremendous strain on the powerventer in the post purge mode with the damper closed. Also, I believe that the flue pipe should be full sized to the power ventor and then reduced at the power ventor connection. Double check the instrutions for the ventor kit.

Scott G.

Never time to do it...right

ALWAYS TIME TO DO IT TWICE... Sorry to see your new steamer abused like that Marcus. Looks like it's time to get out the installation instructions and FOLLOW THEM. Good Luck and post pics. of the resurrection...Scott G.

ScottMP

Marcus

Try this drawing and see if it helps.

I see multiple problems on your job. Number one is the way the the risers to the house come between the two risers off the boiler. The steam is coming out of the boiler from two pipes and banging into each other. Also the equaliser piping is wrong. Your hartford loop on the returns is wrong also.


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