USA Hydronics Licesing

Unknown

for even suggesting it.

I am looking for opinions only. Everyone's got one.

I certainly respect your opinion. Your posts are among some of the finest I've seen here. Keep up the good work and let me handle the heat for this one.

Thanks for playing;-)

Gary Wallace AOL IM; Radiantfloors

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Unknown

Survey of States; Opinions Wanted.

After reading an earlier post from Eren & Dan H., I find it curious that there has never been professional licensing required for hydronics in any of the states where I have worked.

How would you feel about a regulatory agency stepping in and requiring us to hold a professional heating license? Should'nt we be required to permit and have our hydronic work inspected as the other trades do?

Gerry Gill stated that Ohio has a hydronics license..dont other states?

Just wondering why Canada seems to have a hand up on those of us south of the border?

Gary Wallace AOL IM; Radiantfloors

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Firedragon_4

Be careful what you wish for, FACT!

Steve Ebels

Case and Point

If permits, inspections and licensing are able to be enforced across the board, equally to all, I'd say a resounding yes. Here in screwed up Michigan, it's another story.

I just had a conversation with one of the big wigs at the Mechanical division in Lansing this past Thursday. The topic of it was an unlicensed hack who is selling/installing these outdoor wood boilers at a rate of 3-4 per week around here. I had an opportunity to view some of his work this past week and I was mortified to say the least. Just one example..... He's using black polyethylene plastic pipe for cold water to run from the boiler into the house. Duh!!!, no wonder people told me I was $3.00 a foot higher than he was. We use Stadler Fosta-Pex, just a trifle different type product than black PE.

So I called the Chief Inspector and basically was told that as long as there are no complaints from this guys customers the state can't do a single thing about it. He has no insurance, pays no comp, pulls no permits, pays for no inspections, pays no licensing fees, uses materials not rated for the task and the head of the State Mechanical Division says he can't do anything about it.
So I asked him why I should maintain my license and all of the above. It's just a penalty that I have to pay to conduct myself in an honest law-abiding manner if enforcement has no more teeth to it than that. His response was to have patience, it'll catch up to the guy someday. Yeah, RIGHT!!! When the heat is on he'll just skip to another location or state and do it all over again!!!

hydronicsmike

A longer while ago....

I once mentioned on here that it would be great to have some sort of certification before you can install a hydronic heating system. Back then, I was completely ripped appart for even suggesting something like that. I was told that we already have too many regulations and laws...

In my opinion, it is fair and anybody who is a true Hydronics kind of guy, would have no problems whatsoever to pass any certification process there would be. YOU spend so many days, weeks or even months educating yourself every year to keep up and do the very best you can to deliver a quality and well produced product.It would protect you guys from the low bidder, first time and self appointed hydronics guy who is competeing with you. I know a number of excellent hydronics guys who lose job after job, because of someone who doesn't know what all is required in a system and leave out critical components and therefore have a cheaper estimate.

Those guys who don't know, harm our indutry more than they help. First of, they hinder you in making the kind of money that you should for your artwork and expertise and they give hydronics a bad name. Second, I hear it over and over again that some people actually believe that Hydronic Heating Systems do not work and that they would go back to a furnace. Well, any system that wasn't working that I have seen, was because it wasn't installed right. It may appear that hydronic heating may be as easy as pumping hot (or warm) water through pipes, but I believe that there is more to it.

I would still vote for it. Give it some time and you will see what benefit the industry will get, by watching the guys in Canada trying it out.

Please be easy on me this time. This is just my personal opinion and everybody is entitled to have one. I respect everybodys opinion.

Thanks.

Mike

chris_18

there are

licence requirements in california.

there are several catagories

'C-4' is for boilers, steam fitting, and hot water heating. although mostly used for commercial, it is starting to be applied toward residential heating also.

I am sure there are other states that require a heating license, just not enforced.

Chris

Steve Ebels

In Michigan

> licence requirements in california.

>

> there are

> several catagories

>

> 'C-4' is for boilers, steam

> fitting, and hot water heating. although mostly

> used for commercial, it is starting to be applied

> toward residential heating also.

>

> I am sure

> there are other states that require a heating

> license, just not enforced.

>

> Chris

Steve Ebels

In Michigan

You need the following:

A mechanical license with HVAC and Hydronic piping endorsements. Then you need a boiler installers license. Catergory 1B is low pressure hot water (<160 psi water, <15psi for steam) firing rate below 1,000,000 btu's. 2B is same pressure rating, unlimited btu's. 3B is high pressure steam (power boilers up to xxxx btu's and so on up to 6B which is nuclear powered equipment.

So you need to deal with two different divisions of Consumer and Industry Services down in Lansing, Mechanical and Boiler, hold two different licenses and it doesn't do a bit of good as you can see from my post above.

Like I said before, if it was enforced or even enforcable, it would be a great thing. There are way to many hack and slash, burn and run types out there. As it is now having a license is a penalty for me.

Firedragon_4

I'm a Master Pipefitter

and Oil Burner Technician in MA. Living with licensing for 35 years I can assure you it's only good if it's enforced. Even with that, it's only good if you have enough people to monitor those that don't pull permits. The biggest problem in MA is those that don't do it right and those that don't turn them in.

Josh M.

In my area we only have 2 pro hydronic guys. We know all of the rules. However every plumber and tin knocker in the area trys it atleast once and sooner or later I have to come fix their mistakes. Do I wish there was a license...YES! And in my opinion you should have to train for atleast 8000 hours before being licenced!

Paul Mitchell

license

in nj we can install a boiler...as long as we dont replace or need to install a backflow preventer, also hwh and boiler mates require a licensed plumber. i wish they would change the plumbing licensing to differant grades..ie: an A license is a regular plumber as we know it...B license would be commercial and industrial hydronics only..C license would be residential light commercial hydronics..cover boilers and hot water heaters etc. Personally i dont want to run waste lines,set toilets etc. just want to install some boilers and hwh without the need to include my plumber in the job...hydronics license does me no good unless it qualifies me to do the above things without a plumber.

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heatboy

I'll opt out on this one.

If I am licensed, is it going to change the way I work? No. I try and do it correctly now.

If I am licensed, would everyone else be? No. There are too many unlicensed plumbers to think that would work.

If I am licensed, would the inspector know more than I do? No. If he did, he would be out here doing it.

If I am licensed, would it make my life as a businessman better? No. It would be just something big brother could leverage against me.

It is up to the consumer to educate themselves so they don't get taken. It has always been that way and it will always be that way. That is as it should be. Having the government involved will certainly not help this situation and would, undoubtedly, lead to much higher costs to the end user.

Badges? We don't need no steenking badges!

hb

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Paul Mitchell

amen to that



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hot_rod

tides we have tried to swim against

I too carry all the required State, and local licenses, insurances, and bonds. Including the RPA certifications

With the exception of new construction tied to a bank loan, rarely does a homeowner question my credentials, or ask for written proof of insurance.

I suspect I am one of the few contractors that play by all the rules in my area. Heck, most can't make supply bills on time!

Without qualified, honest inspectors, an enforcement "team" and meaningful punishment, really what is the point of yet another license?

Where would the money come from to create and support this license. Probably deeper in my pocket, while the other 80-90% go by unlicensed. The guys that would "pay the tab" generally aren't the ones creating the problems.

hot rod

heatboy

Certificates of Insurance............

would be the first thing any homeowner should request from their contractor. I have never been asked, either. While that isn't an end all, it would at least show them the contractor is actually in business. $1,000,000 in general liability is the minimum a contractor should have.

This would also help wholesalers when it comes to selling equipment. If you show a certificate, you get contractor pricing. If not, you pay list.

hb

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Tony_8

I'm for it, but

I'm afraid it wouldn't get enforced. I see things like Steve's outdoor wood boiler thing every day. Farmers, auto repair guys, yard equipment salesmen all sell these things and I fix 'em after a couple of uncomfortable winters for the homeowners. We even have one who advertises,"water heat doesn't dry up your sinuses" ! Of course not, you're outside feeding wood all the time !

Mad Dog

All Canada has over us is more gov't control...........

I'll pass on A hydronics license....just more bureacracy we don't need. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

I feel the same way Steve...we got quite a few Meatballs running

around Long Island doing the same type of substandard and out right criminal work. But, Who needs yet another fee to pay and rules to comply with when WE are the only ones that will be playing by the rules. It reminds me of the Gun Control issue: Criminals don't operate by the laws...never did...never will. Law-abiding citizens are the victims because they have to dot every i, and cross every tee. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

I didn't snap at ya last time Mike, and

you make a very valid argument. Yes, it would be nice thing if it were done right, but that is not likely. I have some Canadian Friends, but I do not like the direction their gov't has been going in the last 25 years. You would think they were on Mainland Europe with the way they think and act. Time will tell. Hey, we have licensed legit companies around here that do bad work, always undercut us, and scew people over all the time. Unfortunatly, John Q Homeowner, does not learn until its too late, that the price he got was too good to be true. Mad Dog

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Mark Eatherton1

In Colorado...

we have no hydronic or heating licenses required for residential application. Most class 1 cities (Denver, Colorado Springs, Grand Junction) require thier own municipal licenses. A pain yes, but the consumer is paying for it.

Our attempts to get a state license on the books was shot down by none other than The City of Denver!.

Rumor has it they were worried about the interruption to their revenue stream by allowing the State to get their revenue from licensing. Petty if you ask me. They can still require local contractors to "register", just like they do the electricians.

I agree on enforcement. The inspectors need to be trained and they need to be uniform in their enforcement.

Van Couver BC has an excellent program whereby you must file a heat loss calc and an approved design prior to getting your permit. The inspector comes out with the drawing you submitted and makes sure you installed what you designed. It requires the inspectors to be trained and certified as well. There are times that I question the need for further government intervention, and I'm not a big fan of big brother, but I think that we as an industry need more regulation and enforcement. Looking the other way doesn't cut it.

JMHO

ME

Mad Dog

For quite awhile I was including a copy of my lic and insurance

with written proposals. I also enclosed a ten-reasons-why you should-hire me thing like Dan wrote up in one of his books. It makes a difference with very few people. Most look at you and laugh and say "you're too much ha ha ha .....is this why you are soooo much higher than all the other bids???" I got sick of trying so hard. That is why I instituted a charge for estimates ( I like Hot Rod's term...Trip charge - people seem to understand it better when you put it that way.)...it weeds out the pure price shoppers. Now, I just wait for them to find me - the good customers who appreciate quality. Mad Dog

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Steve Eayrs

In Alaska we don't have special lisc. needed for boiler installs, other than the same lisc's needed to do all mechanical work. You need to have a mech. contracters lisc., which you can't get without being a lisc. journeyman plumber for at least 2 years. Regular UPC and UMC codes. (Opps I forgot our mechanical code is now International, not UMC. Confusing part is our plumbing code is still UPC, and the two conflict each other some)


Without both of these above lisc., and proof of a high cost insurance policy, you do not qualify for a business lisc, or the contractors lisc., which just like all the others is a seperate cost and form, etc....



All this stuff gives me the priviedge to go out and compete without guilt, or worry that I might get caught, and have my name in the paper.



According to some of the GC, and HO's I compete against others who don't have any of the above, and may not even have a SS number.! If these illegal bozos charged 1/4 of what I charge per hour, they would still be taking more home than me. Guess who gets accused of being too high.



If we ever do see the state inspector, he knows where I work, and who I am, but he would have to catch the no-name guys in the act to do anything. Even when he has been told
who the guy is, when and where he is working, the budget usually doesn't allow for him to come down. If he does manage to, everyone knows it will be at least a month or two before he will be here again. So they all go back to work.

I hope a few of you home owners are reading all this, and can come to understand why we charge what we do. If it sounds to cheap to be true, you better ask for proof of insurance, and lisc's, before hiring someone.



The ball is really in the HO and GC court. They are the only ones that can choose to hire us over the scammer. I have come to the conclusion that if they want to inforce or fine someone, maybe it should be those who hire un-lisc'ed people.



If your in need of medical help you don't go to the street corner to buy your drugs. Why is this any different.


Steve

Al Letellier

licensing

Here in Maine it's quite simple. We have licensing and permitting for plumbing, oil burner work, gas installations and electrical work. You simply can't legally install a heating system with out a license. The plumbers are limited to certain areas of the installation, the oil burner master licensee can do it all, including the wiring and the elctrician can only wire it. You must be licensed to do any gas work here.
We've had licensing here since before WWII. My grandfather had licence #16. so it's been here a long time and it works for the most part. there are always some who mess it up....

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Why do you want government involved?

The federal government has ZERO business in such matters.

Left to the states you get 50 different sets of regulations.

I challenge anyone to present ANY problem that has been truly solved by the government. Like medicine, it is a PRACTICE that only treats symptoms in the "difficult" diseases.

Do such with the status quo and I GUARANTEE that every "Joe Schmoe" plumber will INSIST that his CURRENT license GUARANTEES him the ability to work on nearly any hydronic system. After all, "a pipe is a pipe"! I'm NOT PLUMBER BASHING HERE--just saying what WOULD HAPPEN!

What is needed is some form of organization dedicated to producing hydronic systems in MANY forms, all designed for high efficiency and comfort with STRICT guidelines as to how to best achieve these goals given the type/budget/control versatility.

Let such "certify" equipment, systems and installers. Let such provide a place for manufacturers to EARN acceptance. Let such give benefit to those who think (and PROVE) they have "no need because they ALREADY produce such systems" by providing cutting-edge training, "beta" testing, experimental data and even opportunities for such to TEACH TO OTHERS.

MOST IMPORTANTLY let such provide an extremely high expectation of EXCEPTIONAL performance to consumers. Let such tell consumers that the installer ONLY uses GOOD ways to skin the hydronic cat!

If you REALLY want hydronics to grow in the U.S. the current system of boiler ratings seems either skewed to hot air or still entrenched in steam produced at "standard" atmospheric pressure. The current trade associations that might be able to do such seem skewed primarily to a specific method of heat transfer without any real concern for the SYSTEM as a whole or even the common-sense physics behind the product.

Such is not an easy thing. It may well be impossible. If it did start and show promise of success, greater powers would likely dedicate their every breath to its destruction.

JohnNY

Bring on the license

Sometimes a license or certification of some kind is the one and only thing that seperates the professionals from the wannabees in our trades.

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Mark Hunt

Challenge!


Here ya' go Mike.

The Government has solved the "problem" of how much money I should make. Other than that one, I can think of no other.

But why stop at Hydronics? Here in NY, NO license is required for ANY heating work.

There are a few local municipalities that require "building permits" to install "Heat producing appliances." The installations are inspected afterward. They are really only intersted in the venting of the units, not whether or not the unit was installed correctly.

I agree with Steve on this. If the playing field is even, fine. But if I have to be licensed and a forced air company doesn't, to heck with that.

Mark H

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hydronicsmike

Mad Dog...

...Did you ever hear the saying: 'A lesson in life is the hardest and worst lesson to get, because you don't get it until it is too late?'. - It's true.

What about Canada though. I agree with some of the things you have said when it comes to the way things were going in Canada. I am a firm believer in the way we do things here in North America and don't believe that we neccessarly have to change anything to be more like Europe. Don't get me wrong. I do like what they do there, but this is not Europe. I was born and raised in Europe (Germany) and like it here soo much because it IS different. In many ways do we do things better than they are, because we have (and still are) learned from their mistakes. I could mention a number of examples.

One thing I do like about the European System, is that in order to become a Journeyman Hydronics Heating guy, you must know the code. It is preached to you in over a 3.5 to 4 years time (during the apprenticeship), over and over. Technically, you must be a journeyman to install the system, or, an apprentice or helper that is monitored by a journeyman.

I am not neccessarily saying that this is what we should have over here, but I like what the Boys in Canada are trying to accomplish by at least having a uniform heating code, the B214.

A also agree that it is almost impossible to create a licencing procedure right this minute. We wouldn't have the people or recources in place to enforce it. And, who is going to pay for it? We may not even need a licencing procedure at all. But what may help our trade, is a propper code (like the B214) that everybody must follow. In order to get a job approved by the inspector, everything has to be done by code. Maybe all we have to do is licence our inspectors to code requirements. -Just a thought, and sorry if I am offending anyone by saying this.

I shouldn't even talk about this kind of stuff. It just upsets me when I see YOU guys being shafted time after time because of the people who don't know or care about the actual requirements. In my opinion, this is a very respectful trade and requires a lot of knowledge, expertise, artwork and dedication. Why is that we always have to be cheap(-er than the next guy)? If there is anything that I can do to make this trade more respected by the public, I will. Because the Industry we are in definitely deserves better.

Amen.

Mike

Mad Dog

A few years ago our Local PHCC chapter ran an ad

in the local papers and Pennysavers that stated that you did not have to pay a "contractor" who was unlicensed and unisured. quite a few people took advantage of the this and there was a big uproar. I had heard that indeed it was true, too. mad Dog

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Mad Dog

What do we expect from People that habitually reelect

"TEDDY-Boy". No offense Chowdahead, Chuck Shaw, and any other Wallies, Paul Lessard, and Aerosmith - you guys are alll ight! Mad Dog

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John Felciano

Gary

Here in Connecticut we have a license for just about all the trades except for the carpenters.And in my opinion it's a very good idea.For one thing it does help protect the trades to some extent.

In order to become licensed you need to surve a four year apprenticship with 400 hours of classroom under a licensed contractor ,than test for the journeymans license, another two years and you can test for your contractors.

As I understand it the unions played a big roll in creating the licensing here way back when.

The problem I have with it now is I can only have one apprentice under me and need two journeymen for each additional apprentice.It makes it very hard to legally bring new guys into the trade and their is a serious shortage of journeymen at this point.It keeps the money higher for those guys who have their journeymans license.

It's the same way for plumbing.four year apprenticeship,two year journeymanship.The state does allow you to do your plumbing and heating time together but they require six years apprentiship and two years journeyman.So a fully licensed plumbing and heating contractor has eight years experience before being able to go into business and pull permits.

The whole thing is rather confusing,but it seems to work.It doesn't mean their arent guys running around doing work without the proper licenses,but it does help.

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