NCI Class (ME)

Mark Eatherton1

I will be attending the NCI carbon monoxide class this week here in Denver Colorado.

Looking forward to learning a lot from the guru of partially burnt btu's! (Jim Davis)

Got any questions you want me to ask Mr. Davis ?

ME

Unknown

The list of questions

I have would fill a book. Keep an open mind is all I can say. He has some great ideas for improving combustion. He and I need to get together some day and compare notes and find out what our differences are.

I am sure you will enjoy the class.

Mad Dog

you are in for an epiphany, Mark....

Jim D is the Man.....MD

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Mark Hunt

Tell Jim


that I said "Hello" and that his training has doubtlessly saved many peoples lives.

I look forward to hearing about your experience Mark.

I know that Darin and I both have been changed in the way we approach every home. In our area, 99.9% of the PHVAC contractors NEVER test gas equipment, and oil testing does not include CO tests.

I want my customers comfortable, happy, and most importantly, ALIVE!

Mark H

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Mark Eatherton1

I find him to be...

a very interesting fellow. He has some radical ideas, with a proven track record to back it up. He and Timmy Mc need to get together some day and compare notes.

You have to go into this thing with an extremely open mind, and try and forget all the mis-information you've been taught over the years...

The interesting stuff happens tomorrow.

ME

Unknown

Is any of the mis information

currently part of the national fuel gas code?

That is the part that is hard to ignore, as manufacturers.

Noel

Mad Dog

Jim D is a throwback.........................He is a real rip to

watch...have fun.. MD

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Mark Eatherton1

Not the NFPA...

more like DOE, AFUE, Combustion analysis etc...

His concept is based on over 20 years experience in the field, "tuning" gas fired appliances to the devices mechanical ability, all along while ignoring the usual "factory set up" requirements, like 3.5" W C at the manifold. I actually got the chance to apply what he taught us last night on a brand new Buderus boiler that was having trouble keeping up with DHW loads, and space heating loads.

Ya know what, this guy knows what he's talking about. I raised the gas pressure on the burner until I got the O2 lower, and the boiler started working markedly better. I still need to address the excess draft over fire by modifying the fixed draft hood, but the gas valve adjustments have already made a marked improvement in the thermal performance of the boiler.

He's been doing it for a long time, has been challenged by manufacturers and code authorities, and has not been proven wrong once. What's that tell you about the guy...

He's PASSIONATE about what he preaches, and he's not afraid to step on someones toes to save lives and energy.

I have personally seen what he's talking about with regards to the combustion analyzer myth. The manufacturer claims a thermal efficiency of "X", based on theoretical calculations, but when you apply the "real" thermal numbers (mass flow X delta T X time) and you divided that by the theoretical input, the numbers don't lie, but they are NO WHERE near what we've been told that the supposed "steady state" thermal performance of the appliance is.

Combustion analyzers are a wonderful tool for showing 02, CO and stack temperatures, but you might as well ignore the efficiency portions of the calculation. They LIE!!

There are a hundred ways to get to 80 to 82% efficiency using their numbers, and only one of them is truly correct.

If you get the opportunity to attend Mr Davis class, I would STRONGLY recommend you do so.

Go in with an open mind, and most importantly, don't be afraid to apply what you've learned in his class in the field.

If everyone who works on combustion equipment were to apply his practices to the real world, we could reduce the energy consumtion of all combustion equipment by 20 to 30 percent, and that ain't nothing to ignore.

In addition to saving fuel, you will also be saving lives by addressing the Silent Killer, carbon monoxide.

The seminar will scare you straight.

Check them out at http://www.ncinstitute.com/

Jim said he will drop by some time in the future when time allows.

ME

Dale

Web site?

If you know their web site would you please post it, I'm wondering if there's anything in my area. Thanks

Mark Eatherton1

The schedule...

http://www.ncinstitute.com/Seminars.htm#Schedule

ME

Mark Hunt

Scared straight!


You got that right!

Mr.Davis does not play politics.

Test, test, test, and then test some more!

Mark H

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Jim Davis

Teachers must always be students

Thanks Mark, you don't know how tough it is to teach sometimes when you know a student is a lot smarter than the teacher on most areas except the little bit I know about combustion, CO & efficiency. Your comments are warmly appreciated and you kept me on my toes. I hunger as much for the knowledge that you have and I don't, as I do with all my students. I believe that it is only with shared knowledge and experience that we will all gain and even more important--Our Customers!!

Unknown

Hi Mark

I am glad you got a chance to attend Jim's classes. Some pretty exciting stuff he puts out. I trust your judgement in evaluating his presentation.

I am curious with the Buderus boiler you made adjustments to what is the input on the rating plate and what is it now?

Could you have changed the orifices instead of increasing the pressure and accomplished the same thing? I am assuming that by increasing the gas pressure your O2 went down and CO2 went up is that correct? What was the net stack temperature and draft?

Also am curious to what modifications you are going to make to the draft hood?

What is specific gravity and BTU content on gas in your area? Do you also factor for altitutde?

I have a lot of things that I have experimented with over the years on boilers and furnaces in order to increase efficiencies and drop CO readings. Most of them are not acceptable to equipment manufacturers so I am careful not to advertise them to loudly. That may be seen to some as playing into their hands. I think at some point those of us who have knowledge gained over the years need to sit down with the manufacturers and have a forum on efficiency and put some real truth forth that everyone can understand. I know Jim Davis has probably tried this in the past and found it was perhaps not productive, I do not really know if he has.

I would love to have him come to a Wetstock so we could all spend a day discussing what we have discovered over the years. I have an old friend of mine who is retired now who at one time was one of the finest combustion engineers in the country. He was the distributor of Midco conversion and industrial power burners. He along with several others were my mentors over the years. I would probably see if I could get him to come. I have a feeling that Jim Davis and I are on the same page with combustion. We have just taken a different philosophical approach to advertising our findings.

I am curious did you get any written material on procedures from NCI? I have never been able to get them to sell me any thing in writing about their techniques.

GW

Hi Ho Captian

I did a new boiler the other day, the 40 plus year old boiler was lapping flames up the side when I took the burner access door off the side. All screwed up, junk all over the big ole flat CI burners. CO bolted to 2000 to I yanked my probe out before I spooked my meter-
Oh, this particular boiler I COULD NOT get the probe into non diluted flue gas- do I drilled the smoke pipe... very nasty.

I told the lady she could spend x going through the unit, or Y to replace.

She replaced.

She said the next day when we came to do the boiler that she woke up that morning without a headache for the first time this heating season. She wondered why she had felt yucky last winter, fine all summer, and yucky again this fall. Now she knows and she's one grateful customer.

Thanks Jims for causing me to spend time and money for training and tools.

Gary

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GW

I hear ya

I've been actively searching for a sonic flow meter. I posted a message here once and no one replied.

I'm just getting going on a rather large Viessmann job. I'm spending some more $ on the circ flanges- the one that have the Ball Valve and the purge tapping integral. I'll do a head loss calculation and a DeltaT, and calcualte the BTU.

I'm dying to test Jim's theory on modulating burners- I'l be able to see BTU's going out and BTU's going in, and see if the mod burner on the Vitodens is really pulling its weight.

I'll be sure to post ssome pics when I'm up and running.

Gary

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Mark Eatherton1

Hi Tim...

To be honest with you, after taking Jims class, I didn't worry about what the clocked input to the appliance was after adjustment. I did clock it before, and it was slightly underfired. Myself and Dennis Bellanti are going to go back in and readjust the gas valves to factory spec and note combustion parameters and delta T's, then boost it back up and note the difference, and then modify the draft hood and note the additional increase in output. I will post the information when it comes available.

I could have accomplished the same thing by increasing the orifices, but at what cost? The increase in gas pressure did not lift the flame off the face of the burner, or I would have put myself into a CO generating position. In some cases, if flame lift becomes an issue because of burner design, then the labor necessary to reorifice would probably be warranted.

Your assumptions about O2 and CO@ are correct. The net stack temp was around 475 degrees F, which according to the combustion analyzer, dropped my combustion efficiency down to around 78%. That's one of the things Jim teaches you. Ignore the theoretical. Look to the practical. The delta T of the boiler increased enough to the point where I was able to satisfy demand.

The modifications to the venting system entail the addition of a barometric damper to alleviate excess draft. It is currently running -.04 to -.05 at the breaching, down stream of the fixed draft hood. This is an acceptaible fix to the manufacturer when dealing with a stack height greater than expected. The use of spill switches at the outlet of the baro is highly recommended, in fact required.

Our gas here in Denver varies from 831 btu/cu ft with a SG of .67 (5,280 ft ASL) to 868 btu/cu ft with a SG of .61 at the same altitude. Thats just for Denver. Statewide, the btu content varies from 1,010 btu/cu ft with an SG of .735 (Holly Colorado, elevation 3,397 ASL) to a low of 671 btu/cuft with an SG of .67 (Climax, 11,320 ft ASL) with everything inbetween, including an air propane system with 1,550 btu/cu ft (no SG listed) in Pinedale Wyoming. Ya think it's not tough dealing with this issue??? :-)

As to your experimentation and the manufacturers, I do not understand why they haven't come around to this way of thinking, and I can not speak for Jim, although I'm sure he has either approached them, or has been approached by them. Maybe Slant Fin will pay for Noel to attend a seminar, and then he can speak from the manufacturers position. One would think that if what Jim preaches is unsafe, his practices would be banned. He is one of the safest people I've ever met when it comes to combustion, and he has not been banned.

As for printed information, yes, as an attendee, you get a lot of written information. As for getting it without attending the seminar, I don't think it would be a wise decision (you excepted of course) to turn this technology loose to anyone unless they have first attended the series.

It does baffle me that something this important has slipped past the authorities and the manufacturers...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Jim...

I appreciate the opportunity to tap into your wealth of knowledge, and can only reciprocate the favor. Feel free to contact me with any hydronic related questions I can help you with, and trust me when I say, "I'll be in touch".

Thanks a million.

ME

Unknown

Good morning Mark...

I look forward to hearing from you on your findings.

Does Jim mention anything about an old trick used years ago on conversion burners of cutting in a neutral pressure point slide after the draft hood (between draft hood and chimney). It was often called a "guillotine". This was used to control both over fire draft and draft at the chimney. The old books showed it inserted into the top of the flue pipe I prefer to insert into the bottom.They also showed it installed ahead of the draft hood. I have tried it with some modern designs and found it to be quite succesful in reducing draft, It is alot cheaper than a barometric and once installed can not be altered by someone later. This is not approved by manufacturers however. There are times when only a barometric will work however.

I know you guys out in Colorado have your hands full with trying to determine factors (specific gravity, btu content) when setting up burners it certainly must add to the labor on set up.

Another thing I have done as an experiement was install coaxial orifices on a job in my lab (warm air furnace). These orifices are used on gas ranges only they are not authorized on any other equipment. Being able to adjust air and gas at the same time on burners was very interesting. The results I found I was able to tune the unit to maximum efficiency with increased Delta T and no CO that was measurable. Not that I would recommend doing this.

The problem we have is the difference in areas and gas charteristics being different. The guys in the areas near the gas fields have some real problems with wet gas and dirty gas.

Combustion analysis and equipment adjustments is a whole area that needs addressed. NCI and Jim have got their foot in the door I just hope more doors open and some people will begin to listen.

Mark Eatherton1

The Guillotine...

Yes, he did mention that, and I've actually used it myself in the field, but for ever changing conditions of draft, nothing beats a barometric. Sometimes you have to do BOTH!

I had a small atmospheric boiler I was lending to an engineer friend of mine while he was awaiting delivery of his T-50 Munchkin. We couldn't find the bell shaped draft hood that originally came with the appliance, so we fashioned one out of a Tee. His chimney was masonry, about 25 foot tall. Even with the full sized tee as a draft relief, I ended up cutting a guillotine into the breaching before the relief vent and had to go 90% through the breaching before I was able to maintain a good clean burn. Finally got the CO down to zero (didn't think that was even possible) and don't remember what the other parameters were, but the boiler finally did its job and quit running for ever.

It is simply amazing to me how much fuel is wasted out there, and if you don't test the flue gas on start up or service, you'll never know. You're just guessing.

But even in some cases, if you do have an analyser, and don't know what you're looking at, you're still guessing too:-) DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR FAITH IN THE FINAL OUTPUT OF THE METER/ANALYZER. Know what you're looking at and how to deal with it. Test, test, and test again.


ME

Jim Davis

Mark & Timmie

Aprreciate the commnts again, and yes I have approached about every organization I can and many manufacturers have listened to my story. Timmie, you and I will get together in the near future, somehow, someway. For those interested I will be in Mahwah,NJ, Dec 2-4, doing my training. Check ncinstute.com for schedule. Hope to see more of you there. Gary, Mark, Maddog thaks for your comments but most of all for being out there doing a great job!

D lux_2

please post link for sch .

It wouldnt work

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Glenn Harrison_2

http://www.ncinstitute.com/ (nm)

Unknown

Jim Davis ...

I really look forward to getting together with you. Perhaps we could set up for you to do a seminar at my center sometime.

Mark Eatherton1

Try this...

it worked for me. Make sure you don't have any extra spaces when you copy and paste.

http://www.ncinstitute.com/Seminars.htm#Schedule

You won't regret going.

ME

Glenn Harrison_2

I'll second that!

Attended Jim's class a couple of months ago, and I will say it is the best class I've ever taken! You can't go wrong by taking this class!