Time for a new gas boiler - your prof opinion please..

STEVE_17

Hi,

my 16 year old bryant boiler (299K btu) has sprung a leak in the heat exchage. The heat exchange has a 20 year warrenty according to bryant but there is at least a 40 day wait for that part for my boiler. estimates for replaceing the heat exchange came in at $1500 - $1800 (sounds high?!?)

I cant wait that long since its 33 out tonight in NYC and, in any case, the estimate i got for replacing this part makes me think of getting a new boiler especialy since i read the the expected life time of these boilers is 17-20 years.

What do you pro's think? repair or replace?

FYI on the replace:I got quote for a new 250k btu weil mclean boiler installed for $2500 from a guy who is doing other plumbing work in the house now. Sounds reasonable? I know nothing about boilers, is weil mclain a good name? what would you get in stead - this boiler feeds a 3 zone hydronic system.

Also, is it true that the rule of thumb for a mod. well insulated house is 600 btu per square foot?

Thanks in advance

SH

kevin coppinger_4

You really need to see a...

job to quote a job....Otherwise you are just guessing. Where did you hear the 600btu/sq.ft. #??? So A 1000 sq.ft. house would need a 600,000 btu boiler? Any boiler replacement should have a through and accurate heat loss done....get a good contractor in OR two to give you some ideas,get references, use find a contractor! good luck

bob young

low ball jobs

SOUNDS like you got a bogus plumber working for you. that job goes for at least 4 k and that is lowball. is this gent licensed reg. and insured???? probably not. you should definetly go new and junk the boiler. bryant was low quality from day one. a gas company special. weil-mclain is living on legend. go burnham --steel push nipples. good luck you might need it. free advice from a n.y.c. lic. master plumber

STEVE_17

NOT a low ball

This plumber is also running all new plumbing to 4 bathrooms and is adding a zone to the hydronic(house is being practically gutted). He told me he will charge me as little as he can since he is already on site and is doing so much other work

do you recomend a specific line by burnham or anything they make is up to par?

Floyd_5

Steve...

you ask for advice.....you got it... now take it ......
there is no way you'll get a quality boiler AND a quality job for that money!!!!!

If he's gonna do it for that and do it right... then watch your hind end cause he's gonna put it to ya with the other stuff he's doin for you.....

MAKE SURE he does a heat loss!!!!!! I'm bettin that your old "gas co." special is WAY over sized......sell more gas that way!!!!

STEVE_17

no need to get angry and break that ! key, i was just adding more info.

I did a heatloss calc online (heatload.com) as best as I could and came up with a recomended 125K btu boiler which is bit over 1/3 of my old 299k boiler - ?!?! could it be THAT much over sized or did i do it wrong

FYI the house is 2 floors+ finished attic frame house. approx 3200 square feet over a 1200 square foot basement. the old boiler heated a house with no instulation at all. i added r13 in all walls and r30 in attic.. there are many windows all are double pane but very cheap and flimsy and will also be replace in a year or so

Thanks

SH

bob young

mickey & the boys

your plumber is the one who is supposed to SIZE the boiler . he is supposed to be the expert. never heard of a inexperienced home owner sizing a boiler for the plumber. this sounds like a real mickey mouse operation. are you possibly just jerking our chain???? are you gonna instruct thr plumber how to design the piping too?? if you are teaching him all this the price is too high. he should do it for free and pay you a " engineering fee" i would like to meet this plumber, i hope you guys don't blow up your house. sounds like together you are more than capable.

Mark Hunt

Steve


You should ask the plumber for referrences.

$2500 is very low.

Call a few other contractors and get some other options.

Mark H

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Rob T

You know

sometimes you "pros" are just plain brutal here. The guy comes asking for advice and some of you start ripping him and his plumber apart.. Why? If you think he is making a mistake say so but do it civilly.

It's pretty easy to tear someone down, especially long distance from the safety of a keyboard. Do you guys actually talk to prospective clients face to face this way??? I seriously doubt it. (Yes I know he probably isn't a prospective client to most here but that's no excuse either.)

I am going to be a little brutal here myself, some of the superior attitudes displayed here at the wall are the reason a lot of us homeowners dislike dealing with "pros".

I was in the construction trade for 25+ yrs and if I had spoken to a client the way some of you apparently do I'd have been tossed out on my ear.

Steve, there is a lot of good advice given out here at the wall, I know because I have been the recipient of some of it. Don't let some of these "pros" knock you around.

I do agree that a 2nd bid would be benificial and that a proper heat loss needs to be done to accurately size your boiler.

As to W-M boilers? We have two of them here at work that were installed in '79 or '80 and they are going strong today.

Burnham makes a good boiler also from the research I have done.

Yes your boiler could be that oversized, my current boiler is 170,000 btu and my house has a heat loss of 48-50,000 btu.

Bottom line, go ahead and do your research it never hurts to be well informed.

Rob

Dan M

Boiler

I have my second Weil-mclain in 8 years, First one was a botched job by "pro" installer and a possible Weil problem. I went to the going out of business auction of the installer and got some neat tools. With help from some of the less hostile people on this sight I got my new one strightened out. If You get a Weil make sure the guy "knows" Weils and not somthing similiar.

Dan

Tony_8

thanks

for pointing that out. I now know my impression wasn't just me. Hopefully you won't get slammed in your personal e-mail for speaking up, as I did. BTW, I am a "pro", and believe part of that is sounding like one. Confidence is great, but there's little room for arrogance.

Bob Bona_4

yes

125K is not out of line for a 3200 sq ft house, especially with zoning. Even that could be oversized! Just double check your numbers, and if they are right, trust the load. Sad to say, but I have seen 300K boilers installed when 100K is all they needed. Major short cycling, major fuel usage, short lifespan. Burnham makes a fine boiler.

2500. for a grossly oversized boiler is way too cheap.I can almost guarantee that for that price, they will just sawzall the old unit out, and use 2 couplers to hook up the new boiler, and not touch anything else that should be replaced/re-piped. Might be a commercial unit they can't sell or are stuck with. At 16 yrs, I would bite the bullet and pop for a new unit. Byrant is an orphan boiler IMO. Near Greenwich, CT?

jim_14

my advice to you is

to get a few estimates, at least 3. See what other people tell you and get a feel for it, ask some questions. If you really want to get into it, do some research on the web and buy some of the books sold on this site- good stuff. I understand you are pressed for time, try using the find a contractor option on here too.

LEAD PIPE

why

would he do that so they can come to his house and yell at him.

jim_14

why

would they yell at him?

LEAD PIPE

read this post

people came down a little hard on him don't you think? Its almost as if people are threatened by this cheap plumber. How about something like..... That sounds way to cheap a price I would be carefull.

I got some great help and advice from this place. I was a little suprised by this thread. I doubt this guy will come back here for help.

jim_14

yeah

some of the posts were a little sarcastic. Who knows maybe the guy is making alot of $$$ doing everything else that he can afford to give him a better price? Or maybe not... Its hard to ask people what they think based on a price.. too many factors in my opinion... maybe the guy plans on using copper pipe, or sawzall out and coupling in the new boiler.

Price and "labor" are always a touchy subject. You can always go to the lowest common denominator when looking at labor costs - i.e. theres always someone willing to work cheaper then the last guy

just my 2 cents

Tony_8

how is

your project coming ? Did you find someone close to you willing to help ? I'm glad you feel you got some "great help and advice" !

I thought MAYBE his plumber liked him and was trying to do him a favor. I've been known to do that AND be the one who got stuck for it at the same time. Goes both ways.

terry_5

boiler fix or replace

weil mcClain is good but so is peerless and crown why repair your old boiler when for a few thousand more you have a new system and years of trouble free worries it really depends on the condition of the burners and the other heat exchangers

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Mark Hunt

You're right


The guy was asking for answers and he got sarcasm instead.

If the answers were that obvious, he wouldn't need to ask questions.

I hope all is going well with your project!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

You're right


The guy was asking for answers and he got sarcasm instead.

If the answers were that obvious, he wouldn't need to ask questions.

I hope all is going well with your project!

Mark H

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LEAD PIPE

Im going to e-mail someone from the last

thread to come and look. I think the last consenses is that Is a sloppy job but the plumbing is right exsept for the circs. Do you basicly agree with that? I would like to wait until after bow season ends. I'm a little busy with that right now.

Mark Hunt

Bow season!!!!!!


Ends Sunday here, but I can understand being busy with that!

Mark H

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LEAD PIPE

sunday?

Man thats a bummer, the rut is just kicking in now. I cant wait for next week. I took vacation and the week after I'm working the 3-11 shift so I can hunt in the morning.

Mark Hunt

I wish you the best of luck sir!


I will be pulling out the .35 cal Monday morning.

If all goes as planned, I will be home by 9:00 am!

Then comes Muzzle loader!

Mark H

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LEAD PIPE

when I

gun hunted, back in the day I used a marlin 35. I hope you get a big one. What state do you hunt in?

Mark Hunt

New York


Time for some venison!!!!!

I bow hunt as well, but never had a clean shot.

Duck hunting Sunday!

I love this time of year!

Mark H

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btc

bryant

Would like to understand more about Bryant being a "gas co special". My 1955 5 section gas boiler runs like a charm. Ive been pretty satisfied with it for the 15 years in this house...

LEAD PIPE

Yes

I started hunting in Monticello NY. A friend of mine had a big piece of property up there. Great times

Gus Ruggiero

Stay away from Burnham

My Burnham lasted 5 before it leaked. Only a home owners opinion. But I thought you could learn from my experience that Burnham support after a problem has been terrible. Hope this helps.

JohnNY

$1500-1800 is suspiciously low. $2500 for a new boiler installed, together with the bad information I'm assuming the same plumber gave you (600btu/sq.ft), means the plumber probably doesn't know what's involved.

I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant but most of us on the Wall are all too familiar with hydronic installations gone bad.

It's truly disheartening.

I, myself, have been on at least 10 jobs this month in NYC that were an absoute mess.

All we are saying is get a second opinion from a reputable, licensed company. From the information you've given us, it sounds like you're likely to benefit from it.

If you use the find-a-contractor service on this site, it is likely my company (Gateway Plumbing and Heating) will come up. Please do not feel obligated to call me. This is not a plug. Luckily, I have a full plate as it is. Anyway, our area is rich with excellent heating contractors.

Good luck.





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ScottMP

Gus

My experience here has been that the people between you and Burnham may have dropped the ball. Most of the contractors I have spoken to have nothing but good things to say about Burnham. You may have run into a poor rep for the company. Its a shame you had a bad experience and one that Burnham would rather not happen.

Scott

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STEVE_17

update

I find that posting questions on public board almost always results in some 'white noise' which is very obvious here.

My update: the 600 btu/sq foot was a mistale - i missread, its 600 btu per linear foot of radiators....

I got other quotes. All 700 to 1000's more then my good ol' plumber. Non of the people who quoted me thought i needed such a big boiler. the average estimate was in the 150-175K output.

I've decide on a burnham series 2 163K output. I will be installed for just under $3000.

Yes it is cheap. but like i said before the plumbing in the house is almost all being redone by this guy

thanks to those who posted serious answers and advice.

S

R Troughton

Hi Mark,

if you were talking to me, thanks again.

My project is about wrapped up as far as I am comfortable taking it. I should have a new pump (Grundfos 3spd) and a Honeywell outdoor reset (AQ275) Monday. I am then going to run the system through this heating season and look into a new boiler next year. (Professionally installed.)

Rob

R Troughton

Hi Steve,

glad you came back with an update. I'd like to hear how the install goes, either here at the board or by email.

Rob

Jay_6

Yikes! 2500.00 for a 250,000BTU Weil Mclaine. I want to know who this guy is and where he is getting his material so i can order 1000 of them and retire early.That number is WAYYYYYYY to low.I would sell a 120,000BTU Weil Maclain, just the boiler itself no labor or other parts, for 2500.00 retail cost..The whole job on a typical 1-2 zone hot water system, 120,000 btu, would be about 6000.00 give or take.You can go ahead and pay that guy 2500 to do the job, but rememeber that you always get what you pay for....Jay